131 Comments
  1. Dr. Brown,

    We are discussing Slain in the Spirit, and probably will discuss Torah for today.

    Shalom

  2. Bo, dangerous or otherwise, you also wrote a quote of me:

    “I have not researched it, but undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign and wonder NT continuance of God’s dominion of His administration. By extending signs and wonders into those of the Nations gathered in his name–and what else can we call the slain in the Spirit phenomena–we have evidence of a seal of the Spirit.” You then stated:

    These are very subjective statements that you make. It is wrong to start with an idea and then proceed to proof text in order to show that your idea is correct. It should be the other way around. We should get our ideas out of scripture and then make our lives conform to it…not vice versa.

    FYI, Bo, I did not start with such an idea then to pursue a proof text to affirm it. I stated with the scriptures offered on signs and wonders, as are posted above. I also included years of experience viewing those slain in the Spirit in some gatherings. My conclusion as to a belief that there is “undoubtedly” contained in scripture a specific reference to the phenomena of being slain in the Spirit is by faith in my Father God. So, my thought development moved from scripture, to experience, to possible conclusion for finding a future proof text. In fact I never offered such a text, for I have not honed in on one, but believe it will present as a missing piece of the topic puzzel in time. I cetainly cannot quote it now, for I am unaware of it, yet am acutely aware of the other proofs I wrote of here. Again, you have taken what I wrote out of my blog theme’s thought development.

    Michael Brown, I have the book and others by him on my shelf. It is a good source for what you mention indeed. A revivalist focus vs. a holiness renewal focus is somewhat in tension in my own understanding and leanings of what ministry to believers should be about FYI. My own relgious affiliation life history has led to a careful and sober examination of the considerations and concerns involved. I am sure I am a thorn in the sides of some of those who write for your Voice of Revolution magazine accordingly.

    I seem to have a unique history and story which leads me to weigh carefully my assumptions, presumptions, and fatherly concerns. I must not go against what is written, and I must also raise probing questions of truth and grace in my calling as a NT Prophet. I seem to not be able to lay down that mantle in my days and devotions, no matter how I try to move on to something less intensive.

    Love to you and yours, Jabez

  3. Jabez H,

    Slain in the spirit is not in the scripture. It is an experience that has shown up in force recently. This experience may or may not be of YHWH. But as Lewis noted, the scripture seems to be rather silent on the subject. I do not believe it is a use of faith to believe something is in the scripture which one has never seen. I believe it is true faith to put faith in the scripture, that I have read, by obeying it. Yours seems to be wishful thinking that maybe some day this scripture will show up. People have been looking for this slain in the spirit scripture for decades and it is still missing as far as I can tell.

    If I am not mistaken, the view that the experience is real and from above, without scriptural support, is nothing more than existentialism. Ones experience does not validate the truth of a scriptural matter, but quite the contrary…the scripture validates (or invalidates) our experience. Even if we never have a certain experience that scripture supports, our experience (or lack thereof) becomes substandard and is not to dictate what is right.

    Shalom

  4. Bo, I suggest you read of revival and awakening history in the church, especially in the UK and the Americas, since the late 1600s to understand the concept and validity involved. You are correct in saying the phrase, slain in the Spirit does not as such appear in scripture. It is a descriptive name given a phenomena happening in some church gathering contexts.

    Nor do all specifically recorded references of what can be called signs following the word so appear. There indeed are more descriptions in church history books expanding what signs and wonders refer to than the Bible permits room or timeframe. Hence, we have history books on what religious experience has existed over the Centuries in the name of Christ as operating in the arena of Spiritual gifts and signs and wonders.

    It does not take a rocket scientist to read what I have written, or what Michael Brown has written on this blog on the subject. Arguments for and against the subject being of God and of order are offered by the various particpants here so far. As for your conclusions, above, they are some among many.

  5. Jabez H,

    Of course I have already read revivalist history and older and know that there have been those that have fallen down in response to the Spirit. I also know that to hold this as normative is not scriptural. The things found in scripture are scriptural and speak to us as to what ought to be normative. Speaking in tongues is normative for those baptized into the Spirit, according to the scripture. If one falls down in the process, it simply is what happened to the one falling, but does not make the falling equal with speaking in tongues. One is scriptural, one is not.

    I have seen many “slayings in the spirit” and such. There is usually an expectation by those that are participating in the service, that the one being prayed for will fall. There are, I’m sure, exceptions to this expectation driven experience. I know that when I was baptized into the Spirit I was unable to stand easily but did not fall backwards or forwards but simply sat down in a chair. There are some that do not have this overwhelming feeling but do indeed get baptized into the Spirit and speak in tongues.

    The falling is not a scriptural sign, but speaking in tongues is. There are those that fell when Y’Shua said “I am He.” There are those that lay down and prophesied naked. I am sure that we do not see these incidents as normative for an obedient believer. If you are “NT prophet,” I am sure that you will recognize that the we must not assume or presume that our experiences are to be set up as normative, but that the scripture is our foundation. The falling seems to be incidental not doctrinal.

    I still do not see how you can exercise your faith that this “falling” must be in the scripture somewhere but just not noticed as of yet. Is this not presumption? Do you see how dangerous it is to believe this sort of thing? This foundation will not hold up a building made of truth. There are many existential religions out there using this kind of faith in their cult leader. The truth has to be more solid than the confession of, “undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign.” For it is likely not a spiritual sign but simply a response to the expectations of those involved or a response to the overwhelming emotion of being touched by the living Elohim, or both.

    Shalom

  6. Actually if you read the entire blog you will find a quote by another participant on such a phenomena as cited in the NT>you may wish to take up your issue with that contributor. As for my expectation to find a prophetic reference of the phenomena in the Tenach, this comes from my own experience of studying Biblical Prophecy. Frankly, there are other realities of religious and Christian historical regard I have found in scripture related to prophecy over the years of reading there, taking ongoing inquiry, word study, references reading, etymological and linguistic roots inquiry, contextual history inquiry, map origins study, prayer for comprehension, other passages comparisons, etc. in order to fully understand related concepts or experiences also not literally stated in the Bible as such, but which have come to be accepted among believers and related communities of faith.

    Take for example, Is. 53, over which we find Talmud Scholars interpretations differing totally from New Testament, and New Covenant interpretations and scholarship. It is not emphatically stated that this famous section then is about “Yeshua”, not naming his name there; it is so interpreted after the facts of experience as confirmed by the desriptors of that scripture to indeed match up with his life and so in a predictive manner. This then involves hindsight and teleological values in drawing conclusions after examining and reading through prophetic scriptures. Psalm 22 does not name him either, as such. Yet these are accepted as Messianic foretellings, and are widely so accepted by believers over the centuries.

    You seem to be demanding that every reference of scripture examined as to forming material for drawing a conclusion of meaning be empatic, precise, and definitive, where prophetic scripture is not always or often so. An approach to prophetic scripture, Biblical poetry and song, the Psalms and widom literature, etc. may indeed not conform to your desires for black and white emphatic statements, precise terms, or literal names and descriptions being stated. Often scholars place names or labels on themes, subjects, or even events that become in time accepted Biblical facts among the faithful. Even so, faith is indeed involved in the final analysis of meaning of most Biblical passage being a subject of what is not yet understood or seen, but what is hoped for.

    There then is the reality of Biblical Interpretation based on many factors, some of which I discussed, above. My thought development then stated the fact that I was open to inquiry in the prophetic scriptures on further illumination on the subject, not that I was going to look for a “proof text” at all. My offerings and statements here are based on actual evidence as it has first presented in my religious affiliation path, and as can indeed be Biblically interpreted as being indicated as signs and wonders following after the preaching of the word. This is a fact of Biblical indication, as I then cited it to be. What you quoted was an open statement about what I would be open to find over time, not about a proof text.

    Prophetic scriptures are teleological in scope, and may present and be pondered as to interpretive meaning by actual experiences, such as those of the actual life of Jesus, or as to the events of the Gospel coming to the nations, prior to gaining insight into a related Tenach scripture to achieve greater defintion or description on the subject of this or any prophetic fulfillment matter. You may disagree with what I have offered, no problem.

    Having encountered the movement of the Spirit in related assemblies, resulting in the phenomena mentioned, I simply cannot dismiss such with a wave of my hand and so as to any level of it not lining up with my or others expectations. In fact, where healing is involved, I simply could place the phenomena under the category of a NT Gift of healing, but, other indicators placed it as a sign and wonder related to confirming the authority, sovergnty and dominion of affirming the NT word of God and the King and the Kingdom.

    I don’t believe I emphasized the word falling, you did. I have not been engaged in any administration of such a phenomena, when encountered, and note it would be unwise to definitively conclude that because an applicable phrase is not found in scripture that some use as a label for a religious experience observed, that another word or phrase therein does not grant adequate information for an indicative definition. In other words in spite of your expectation, what I shared would undoubtedly be pursued over time and was about what I felt from past experience in studying the prophets would occur as a result of study. Call it a gut level belief or expectation formed after some years of Biblical discovery.

  7. Jabez H,

    Lets talk about signs and wonders as they are related in the scripture. The Red Sea was parted, the cloud led Israel in the wilderness, people were miraculously healed of leprosy, blindness, lameness, and deafness. There was also walking on water, calming storms, demons being cast out, snake bites that were rendered harmless water made to wine, and food multiplied.

    Now we have people falling down, laughing uncontrollably, barking like dogs and making other animal noises. (A good hypnotist can do these things.) Can you see a difference between what we find in scripture and what we see a lot of today? Being “slain in the Spirit” is not a sign or wonder worthy to be compared to the scriptural miracles. As I said before, falling down may be a response to being touched by the living Elohim, but it does not seem to be on the same plane as what is described in scripture as a sign, wonder or miracle.

    The times in scripture that people fall down seem to be when demons throw them down or as I listed before, falling back when Y’Shua said “I am He” and Saul laying down naked prophesying. Let’s not elevate “falling under the power” to the level of scriptural signs and wonders. There is just too much qualitative difference between modern falling and scriptural miracles to think that there might be some oblique prophetic utterance that could be construed to warrant calling being “slain in the spirit” a scriptural miracle.

    Surely by now, after decades and maybe centuries, someone would have come up with this scriptural understanding that you have “faith” will show up. This revelation would have shown up long ago if it really was that important. The passages that you list as not being seen as Messianic prophesies have been seen as Messianic from at least the first century. There are some indications that they were seen in this light by the sages long before this. In light of this, I think your analogy is spurious at best.

    Experience is not our guide…Scripture is. So whether we are talking about keeping YHWH’s feasts that He commands instead of pagan celebrations of Xmas and Easter, or about scriptural miracles instead of modern ideas of falling or “toking the ghost,” we must cast away any experience that does not pass the test of scriptural truth. Modern Christianity has replaced YHWH’s appointed celebrations with pagan counterfeits. It has also replaced true miracles with hypnosis and peer pressured falling and such. What will be next?

    When will we get back to simply believing what the scripture states instead of inventing our own versions of worship, holiness and righteousness?

    Shalom

  8. Bo,
    Speaking for me is totally disrespectful of me and of a process of dialogue honored here. Your alleged descriptions of the subject are added to what I have observed of this subject as being my own. These are offered in addition to what I have stated regarding what I have observed of the subject’s alleged meaning–which you have aggressively offered instead as supposedly sourced of my stated experience.

    Your remarks are not based on asking questions of my person or on statements I have made at all about the subject. Thereby there is no basis of actual discovery of intention of meaning for the statements your reply associates with me. Your remarks contain what was only assumed as addtionally representing my personal observation experience of the subject of discussion here.

    In addition a scriptural reference development was also offered which can be read in this blog as indeed inclusive of my statements on this subject. This too has been taken to task as being supposedly invalid, when the thought development and scripture past quoted simply say otherwise. It is not then a different reality than what I stated which you offered in response about scripture, slain in the Spirit, and signs and wonders connection I cited which is substantiated, or not so, but the exclusive methodology of response which is unsubstantiated.

    Instead of seeking a respectful dialogue, you have offered your own substituted statements in the stead of my experience on the subject, along with a negative characterization and a phony testimony as are erroneously constructed in response. Additional associations composed of your own contributions, as represented as then being my experience of the subject of discussion, become highly suspect by giving other substituted experience for my own (as such this was not even close to what was observed over many years).

    As made, these assumptions are coupled with a communication methodology which is disruptive of dialogue. This is suspect by conveying a manner of disrespect which is also coincidentally extended toward my person by considerable misinformation offered by a replacement response representing my last post.

    I offered explaining what my process on this subject and prophetic scriptures inquiry will be to qualify a statement I had made which you quoted out of its context, and was met with mockery, with accusations of inaccurate associations made, along with indications of contempt I have not alike asserted in respecting a communication process. I have not observed, for my basis of statements I made, the phenomena including “barking like dogs”, hysterical laughter, or making other animal noises, quite the contrary. If I had, such too would be subject to the inquiry of scriptural tests, logical analysis, and other witnesses qualifications regarding instances observed: as to then representing any connections of the subject at hand with God, for sure.

    In spite of your mockery, personally, substantiated concerns of an alike characterization regarding what I observed are non existing. I cannot then assert along with you such a spurious and disrespectful response that no one over past time and space has discovered such a prophetic scripture on the subject at hand due to all past scholarship. It is impossible to be completely knowledgable of all past scholarship on the subject, as you have asserted as a basis for your statement on scripture and the subject at hand.

    A survey of the literature is not offered otherwise to substantiate your assumptions and reframed characterizations. As to a text from the prophetic scriptures not existing, perhaps such is so, perhaps not; it remains to be seen for my own inquiry, explained as such. As to any such discovery by me it will be with what was stated as an attitude open to such possibility, based on past reading regard, and not supposed of a dogmatic insistence. I have not even read on the net to date on the subject at this juncture. I require more information to disregard all prophetic scripture as you have as not possibly contributing light on this subject. What has been regarded then positively is from observance seen over a decade of the phenomena of comment here.

    Just so, I will continue to read what I read with or without your permission, as that is a basis of the nature of any person’s scholarly inquiry. A gatekeeper to such pursuit is not sought, or needed–especially one who jeers at others open discussion, and substitutes other disassociated meanings as being representative of someone else with their own.

    You have missed the point of what I said for an example about Messianic prophecies, which were indeed accepted for centuries, the point being that they required interpretation for comprehension. This is upheld regarding their interpretation now standing in the light of actual experience–they not presenting the literal names of Yeshua in their expression. These allusions were used for relating that point as an example relevant to a discussion, were it permitted here.

    That the point was missed indeed has me cautious as to developing further interchange, so I must request that we withdraw from all mutual engagements here.

    Your objection of my acceptance of “slain in the Spirit” as being of God (as was offered with considered signs and wonders scriptural qualifications)—you stated as such regarding finding no such appearance of the actual phrase in scripture. This was spurious for my response involved explaining what would be my process and thinking in approaching scriptural research,where the cited prophetic scriptures as an example indeed held meaning without an actual stating of their subject’s actual name in them.

    My thoughts then developed in this blog along with pursuing known qualifiers over such being of God; you then disrespected regarding my openness to inquire with a common approach to prophetic scripture to discover passages and derive their meaning in the light of historical contextual experience. It is disrespectful because of a follow up assumption including speaking for my person as to statements I have never made, with whom you had and have not consulted as to what would be my process of inquiry on the matter. You did not request this information but belittled by assumptions stated.

    Asking me how I would approach the challenges involved differs from the mockery and mischaracterizations you have now advanced. Nor have questions been asked as to any further qualifications of how the subject was viewed as being in Christ, where so.

    So, since you did not get my point, my point is reiterated about being open to an identification of the phenomena in question, as was so labeled, where it not have to appear literally as the same exact phrase to be so identified, in time, in prophetic scripture. I am unwilling to further interchange with you on this matter by the approach modeled.

  9. Bo, put simply I did not equate the sign and wonder of being slain in the Spirit with a scriptural miracle, though you made the assumptive assoication. I wish no further contact.

  10. Jabez H,

    I guess I misunderstand you. I thought I was commenting on your statements that I quoted and meant none to be out of context. It could be that the length of your posts makes it difficult for me to rightly see your logic or your points. I did not mean to put words in your mouth, but used normal debate techniques to show what I thought were weak points in your arguments. No dishonor or insult was intended.

    I guess you misunderstand me too. As for you putting words in my mouth…I did not intend to make a point that the phrase “Slain in the spirit” needed to be found in the prophetic writings, but that the experience looks to be nonexistent by any name in the scripture. I certainly could be wrong, but I offered the only scriptural examples of “slain in the spirit” type experiences that I have been made aware of in 30 years of reading/dialoguing on the topic.

    I respectfully agree not to address you further on this topic.

    Shalom

  11. Ruth,
    Thanks for your report and identification with this experience as you knew it to be of God. I should also add over the ten years of observing such experiences for some, negative descriptors made by Bo did not occur. As for decency and order it was almost prayer closet like in effect. How voiceferous was it for you, Ruth? This is not to say others in other settings can not know a variant experience.

    Chas. Finney

  12. Shalom

    Bo did not intend any negative descriptors as to the experience of falling and such, but only postulated that the experience does not seem to be found scripture. Here is my main points:

    “The times in scripture that people fall down seem to be when demons throw them down or as I listed before, falling back when Y’Shua said “I am He” and Saul laying down naked prophesying. Let’s not elevate “falling under the power” to the level of scriptural signs and wonders. There is just too much qualitative difference between modern falling and scriptural miracles to…warrant calling being “slain in the spirit” a scriptural miracle.”

    “The falling seems to be incidental not doctrinal.”

    “For it is likely not a spiritual sign but simply a response to the expectations of those involved or a response to the overwhelming emotion of being touched by the living Elohim, or both.”

    Shalom

  13. I would like to entertain the idea that the YHWH’s Torah is for us today.

    The gospel was preached to those at Sinai and unto us. This is stated in scripture. If you want to take the “us” to mean the Hebrews of that time…fine. We as gentiles can be grafted in and be partakers of everything offered to them. So the “us” means us in the final analysis. Peter certainly makes this point in the passage quoted below. If you take issue with the gospel being the same, I simply point you to Abraham that “saw My day” and David that said, “YHWH said to my lord” referring to Y”Shua. “By faith” they entered into the priesthood of the believer. Their faith looked forward and ours looks backward to Messiah’s sacrifice. I know that the prophets of old couldn’t see everything perfectly, but the scripture says that we see through a glass darkly ourselves.

    Hebrews 3:18-4:2
    18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
    19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
    1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
    2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

    The first ones that heard it did not mix what they heard with faith and disobeyed. They refused to continue to listen to YHWH so He separated the tribe of Levi to be priests instead of all of Israel being priests. Here is the offer:

    Exodus 19
    5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
    6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    Here is where Israel refused to hear/obey His voice and opted to here His representatives instead:

    Deuteronomy 5
    25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
    26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
    27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.

    Here is where we see that the offer to us is the same:

    1 Peter 2
    7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    The Levitical system was instituted because Israel as a whole rejected the opportunity/responsibility of hearing YHWH for themselves. The people could have had a “personal relationship” with YHWH and been His priests, but after this they needed someone to teach them YHWH’s will and they needed a covering for their sins until Messiah came in the flesh. They needed priests to mediate between them and YHWH. This earthly sacrificial system “entered because of transgression.” This schoolmaster was put in place to bring us to Messiah.

    So the Levitical system with its “ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary” was set in place because of the refusal by Israel. The book of Hebrews openly declares that Messiah is a different type of high priest. With a different priesthood there are different “ordinances” of administration. The NT sacrifices are different. The NT temple is different and in a different location.

    Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    We know that YHWH had His appointed festivals (they are not Jewish feasts) and rules about clean and unclean long before Israel stood at Sinai. The author of Hebrews tells us of the differences between the systems but does not indicate that the clean/unclean or holy/profane rules have changed. He does not indicate the abolition of YHWH’s appointed times. He (the author of Hebrews) refers to Jeremiah 31, not to show how there is a new law, but a new covenant. The change in the law that He refers to is solely concerning the Levitical ordinances and not that YHWH’s law has changed. We will have to wait for a new heavens and new earth for that to take place.

    Shalom

  14. Hebrews 7
    11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
    13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
    14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
    15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
    16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

    Under the Levitical system the people were taught the law. Under the Melchizedec system the people listen to YHWH for themselves and the YHWH’s law is on their hearts. The church, for the most part, has sold its birthright to a false Babylonian priestly system and has believed the false prophet’s proclamations that the law of YHWH has been changed. We have been duped.

    Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

    Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

    Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    2 Thessalonians 3
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    It is a setup. The spirit of antimessiah is here and preparing the masses for the antimessiah. Unrighteous is sin…sin is the transgression of the law. We will be sent strong delusion it we continue to have pleasure in unrighteousness (law breaking). We need to receive the love of the truth (have the law written on our hearts) or we will not be saved. If we do not speak according to the law and the 10 commandments we have no light in us. We are being deceived. It is the antimessiah that changes the appointed times of YHWH and His laws, not Y”Shua. The earth is difiled/unclean because we transgress YHWH’s rules about clean/unclean and holy/profane. It is defiled because we think to change times and laws. We think to change the ordinances of YHWH. We are breaking the everlasting covenant.

    To be continued:

  15. Continued from above.

    The gospel has been the same since the garden. It is everlasting. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. His sacrifice has always been in effect. The priesthood of the believer has always been YHWH’s design.

    Re 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Re 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    Israel entered into a covenant with YHWH to obey the ones that He set up to speak His words to them. They opted themselves out of the covenant that would be YHWH speaking directly to them. YHWH offers them a new covenant that gives them back the opportunity that they gave up. Now they can be the priests instead of needing to go to the priest. This is what the main body of the book of Hebrews is about.

    Hebrews is preparing the Hebrew believers for the impending destruction of Jerusalem. The temple and its ordinances were about to be “vanishing away.” Messiah had told them to flee when this was about to take place. The call to come outside the camp and suffer reproach seems to have a double meaning. A call to spiritual devotion and a message to be ready to leave before the carnage. The Messianic believers were about to be cast off from the main body of Jews for not staying to fight. The schism was coming soon and they needed to be weaned from that which was vanishing away. Like us, it was difficult for them to divorce themselves from the culture and its ways of worship.

    The kingdom, “new order” as you put it, was prophesied to become corrupted. Matthew 13 is a prime example. Some will not be able to receive the Word of YHWH for various reasons, but a few will bear fruit, 30, 60 and 100 fold. An enemy will sow into the kingdom many false believers. The whole batch of dough gets corrupted with sin and false doctrine (leaven). In the end those that offend (cause others to sin/transgress the law and those that are lawless/without torah will be burnt in the fire. The kingdom mutates into a huge tree in which evil ones nest in its branches. The kingdom is corrupted by Babylon and is full of unclean birds/people. We are called to come out of her.

    So we have those that insist that we not obey YHWH’s law and many believe them and are caused to sin. We have pagan religion and false doctrine mixed into the batch of dough so that it is all leavened now. We have the multitudes, that for every conceivable reason, cannot understand the Word and they do not bring forth fruit unto righteousness and holiness.
    The commandments of men make YHWH’s law of no effect. Y”Shua didn’t come to change even the slightest pen stroke, but we have an almost totally leavened church that insists that He changed it. He hasn’t changed it. We have changed it by our commandments of men. We are the ones that think to change His laws and ordinances. We think we are clean when we are not. We think we are obedient when our transgressions of the law (Sins) are obvious.

    Pr 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

    Shalom

  16. Bo, I am shifting now to what you have written above, where all items your raise here now we conducted blog interactions over prior, in what built to 300 comments prior to Michael Brown requesting a disengagement; this was so, for, he remarked his concerned that such would become a personal argument involving personal attacks rather than a discussion for edification of the body of the Messiah. I too became very weary of the interaction and welcomed his intervention accordingly.

    Here is the rub, where you, as a debator, might tune into some of Dr. Brown’s debates sometime just to analyse these as to how he conducts his interaction when debating over upholding his convictions. There is an aspect of his debate which involves paraphrasing what his opponent has offered prior to taking it to task, where so, noting places of agreement and mutual regard, as well as responding point by point to whatever the theme is of the debate, and the substance or lack of substance his opponent and a survey of the literature on the subject then and thereby raise.

    I am not willing to beat a dead horse here rereviewing all that you bring up once more,as insistently so, above. For Example, the gospel you cite in Hebrews is the good news about entering into God’s rest, not the Gospel of Jesus come, crucified, and resurrected for our inclusion in the beloved (Eph 1:6, KJV). It is the good news that that gospel can provide rest which the earlier framework of the Mosaic law implemention cultic system could not. Read the passage you cite in context, rather than as parceled out for projecting into it your desire for the law to hold as to our obedience criteria somehow being carried into the New order (Heb. 8 & 10)–and if you cannot permit that read–allow us to acknowldge that we disagree and move on to something else.

    It is constrictive of the administration of the New and Living Way to have to now account for every behavior in terms of 613 precepts which were given in an historical literal referenced context which the writer of Hebrews addresses fully. The New Testament contains sufficient lists of sins and requirements for not sinning for its readers.

    It seems to me that you have constantly projected your desire for the law to still be in force and obligatory to New order believers in all you have stated in the past on this matter. Your read of the section of Hebrews, above, is taken totally out of the context its writer asserts, to mean something else not so asserted. And that is my take on the many passages over which you, I, Dr. Brown and others past interpreted differently as to application, liberty, and the will of God.

    Frankly, I refuse to break the Hebrews passage down again for you here, as was done on another blog of Je 16th under the LINE of FIRE umbrella. Even Dr. Brown completely disagreed with your understanding of the law’s present dispensation being as you presented it to be. There were certain passages he interpreted as you did, where his conclusion of the matter was exactly the opposite of your own based on a wide collection of all New Testament passages on the subject of obligation to the Mosaic law.

    All angles on the matter were addressed, discussed, mulled over, presented, and interpreted by you and others and myself there.
    As someone else remarked, it was going in circles, revisiting the same material, interpetations, and positions over and over and over.

    And you have raised a key fulcrum (pivotal) point here above: are we under the law or included in the heavenly perspective of the risen Christ in grace and truth? Is there therefore a New Covenant dichotomy regarding obligation and referenced behavior obedience, or not? Conclusions and argumentation is found in the Je 16th blog discussions, it would be a dead horse remounted to go over all this again here.

    As to your take on this matter you have beat the issue to death on Je. 16th, and have had many who went the long road to politefully address you and your ideas while enduring your manner conclude a 100% polar opposite conclusion than yours. My own final interaction with you on the matter was to carefully paraphrase what you had prior stated, and openly so, as to posturing an openness to further understanding if I indeed understood you correctly as I then attempted to summarize what you wrote.

    You then wrote back a very clear summary of your assumptions and beliefs. My final statement was to say where we agreed and disagreed. You have not persuaded me, or Dr. Brown, and I or he had not persuaded you. Let it rest, or simply give the references of your final summaries of your position there once more, without rehashing an endless debate. Restate once more your very literal and legal position on adherence to the precepts–as a post here for all to go back to or refer to if they need any further clarification of your beliefs.

    Relationally Dr. Brown’s debating technique is of the more excellent Way; he is a better relational debator than I will ever be–extending the love of God shed abroad in his heart, while too upholding what he is convicted of that scripture says on this or that matter or issue. For example, he addresses homosexual behavior and philosophy head on, and yet with great compassion. He uses words wisely, undoubtedly as formed from the anvel of his life experience and religious and faith histories. He has both a controversal history, and a tenacity to return to the source for his own spiritual formation and reformation again and again. He is an eagle saint and role model, learn of him.

    It is amazing to listen to these debates he has conducted, or is Jesus the Messiah formed in him debating by his vessel: on predestination, homosexual issues, marriage and the family, the various subjects raised of Line of Fire, or whatever? We can learn from him how to discuss, not monologue while presenting point counterpoint material and references. We need to move away from endless mulling over of any matter about which we may be convicted.

    As aa trained debator, and counselor, with a New Covenant calling, and Geographical Information Systems Analyst, and Communications Media Designer, I advise you, as a brother, to take some steps back from where you are relationally/spiritually, and go somewhere for a prayer closet retreat, and take along Howard Baker’s Intervarsity Book on listening to God and see if He affirms what you are insisting on now once more.

    Personally, I request the same disengagement on your new/old subject now raised as I did on the former subject of engagement here. Frankly, it rasps, vexes, and wearies my inner person to continue on with your road taken here on either interchange. You may phone my message line, 720-242-5347 to leave your phone number and I will be happy to return your call after the 5th, to converse on how this present style of interaction shuts down a mutual regard of the New Commandment our Lord has mercifully extended to us, and what might be done about this current spiritual impass.

  17. Jabez H,

    I was not addressing you personally in this post, but it was intended for anyone that might read it and be challenged thereby. So please do not feel that you need to respond, and do not be offended if I bring up relevant points on this blog that you and I have discussed in previous blogs. If you have answered me before, you do not need to answer now. If you feel the need to answer then I will assume that you have rescinded your request for non-contact and may begin to address you personally again. I may give you a call sometime.

    As for the new commandment that Y’Shua gave us, it in no way eliminates His father’s commandments. The Father’s commandments are perceptual details on how to love Him and each other. I do not believe that you have addressed many of the points I raise above in a way that would prove a scriptural rebuttal. The reader may judge. It is quite obvious that Anti-messiah changes YHWH’s times and laws. It is also quite obvious that Y’Shua did not and said so Himself.

    Matthew 5
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Shalom

  18. Michael Brown, My first post #1 question in this blog has not been answered, can you direct me to an answer?

  19. Jabez,

    I don’t see many of the posts, so thanks for asking the question again. Do you have my book Our Hands Are Stained with Blood? I try to address your question re: Israel’s identity in chapters 12-14.

  20. Dr Brown,

    I sure appreciate you addressing the issue of the church being proclaimed as Spiritual Israel. I’d love to hear you address this with partial preterist Dr Gary DeMar(I am aware of your previous interaction with him.)and perhaps with a Catholic theologian who deals with eschatology like Scott Hahn (http://www.franciscanconferences.com/Summer/SpeakerDetail.asp?SpeakerID=60) who recently spoke at a Franciscan University Conference in Ohio(http://www.franciscanconferences.com/Summer/confdetails.asp?ConferenceID=206). Keep up the great work! Blessings!

  21. #72, Dr. M.B., Thanks for the reference, yes I have and give away copies of that amazing book, but have not read it for many years. I will again soon.

  22. Concerning Torah for today:

    It will be good to hear the program with FFOZ. They have some very good resources. Here’s a link to one article that I found to be eye opening and insightful:

    http://ffoz.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=210

    The article in this magazine titled’ “But We Are Free! the rule of law” under the moral and ethical issues in Torah section is the one that I endorse. It will cost $3.00 for the download of this issue of their magazine, but it is worth it.

    Shalom

  23. Here is an portion of the above mentioned article where FFOZ author D. Thomas Lancaster discusses a portion of Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s book, “The Cost Of Discipleship.”

    “The law Jesus refers to is the law of the Old Covenant, not
    a new law, but the same law which he quoted to the rich young
    man and the lawyer when they wanted to know the revealed will
    of God. It becomes a new law only because it is Christ who
    binds his followers to it. For Christians, therefore, the law is not
    a ‘better law’ than that of the Pharisees, but one and same; every
    letter of it, every jot and tittle, must remain in force and be
    observed until the end of the world. Jesus has in fact nothing to
    add to the commandments of God, except this, that he keeps
    them. He fulfills the law, and he tells us so himself, therefore it
    must be true. He fulfils the law down to the last iota.”
    Bonhoeffer

    The thing that makes Bonhoeffer so unique among theologians is that he refused to trivialize and explain away the words of Yeshua. He is one of the few among us that actually took the Master literally. Bonhoeffer did not feel the need to be wiser than Yeshua. He did not try to be smarter than the Gospel. He did not substitute rationalization for obedience, and because of that, Bonhoeffer met martyrdom in the death camps of Nazi Germany while many fine and comfortable Christians were goose-stepping around with swastikas on their uniforms.

    Bonhoeffer believed in the rule of law, and to him, a theology that did not confess the rule of law was theology of “cheap grace.”

    (Article: “Ethics of the Torah: The Rule of Law” by D. Thomas Lancaster)

    Shalom

  24. So now I am wondering if anyone can look at these next few passages and not at least wonder if it is possible that YHWH wants us to continue to keep His Torah:

    Matthew 5
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony (10 Commandments), seal the law (Torah) among my disciples.

    Isa 8:20 To the law (Torah) and to the testimony (10 Commandments): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

    Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    2 Thessalonians 3
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity (Law breaking) doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    Can you see the contrast? Is it possible that we are caught up in the mystery of law breaking? Is it not obvious that Messiah is the one that does and TEACHES us to keep even the very least commandment and that the spirit of Anti-messiah tells us that we do not have to keep YHWH’s Torah and 10 Commandments? Are we not saying that Messiah is not the greatest in the kingdom when we say that He teaches us to not do the Torah? Do we not make Him into the Anti-messiah when we do this?

    Shalom

  25. Here is a brief list of scriptures about Torah keeping with a few comments before each one.

    We know what sin is because of the law.

    Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Sin is breaking the law.

    1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Shall we break the law (sin)? Don’t even think of it.

    Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    The law is not sin…it is not sin to keep the law. It is sin to break the law (see above verses).

    Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    The law is holy, just and good.

    Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

    The law is spiritual. We tend to be carnal. The law is not carnal. We can be spritual.

    Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    Even when we break the law (sin) we admit that the law is a good thing by confessing our failure as sin.

    Ro 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

    Do we really serve the law of YHWH with our minds if we say it is not good to obey it.

    Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Only a carnal mind fights against YHWH and His law. The carnal mind cannot submit to Torah. The law is spiritual (see above verses).

    Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    If we submit to the teaching in the law from a heart full of gratitude and love for YHWH and love for our neighbors we use the law lawfully. If we are trying to earn salvation by being obedient we are not using the law lawfully. The law is still good.

    1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

    The law is spiritual. Will we remain carnally minded and say the law is bad when it is good? Will we continue the break the law and think that it is ok because we are under grace? May it never be!

    Shalom

  26. Rest for your souls…TORAH!

    Matthew 11
    28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

    What is Y’Shua’s yoke? Was He referring to something that doesn’t, at first, meet the eye? There is only one other place that we find the phrase “rest for you souls.” It is about returning to YHWH’s Torah…the old paths.

    Jeremiah 6
    16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
    17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
    18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
    19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

    “But they said, ‘We will not walk therein.” Are we rejecting YHWH’s Torah (law) by walking in some new path (false grace) instead of the asking for the old paths that bring rest to our souls? Have we been taught that the old paths (Torah) are bondage and a burden to keep. Y’Shua walked in the old paths perfectly. If we yoke up with Him, what paths will we walk in?

    1 John 2
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    1 John 5
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    YHWH’s Torah is not burdensome/grievous. It is not too hard for us…if it is in our heart.

    Deuteronomy 30
    10 if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
    11 “For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
    12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
    13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
    14 But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

    To be continued.

  27. Continued from above:

    YHWH offers us a new covenant in which He will write His Torah on our hearts. He does not change His laws He simply places them in our hearts instead of on stone. Love for YHWH and His Torah is what makes it not too hard or grievous to keep.

    Jeremiah 31
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Hebrews 8
    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    Is YHWH’s Torah upon your heart, or is it grievous/burdensome to try to do what He has commanded?

    Luke 11
    46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

    The commandments of men are burdensome and heavy. Y’Shua wants us to return to the unadulterated word of truth and not participate in the commandments of men that make the word of YHWH come to nothing. What is it when the pastors of today tell us that we do not need to keep the commandments of YHWH (Torah)? It is doctrines and commandments of men that cause us to err from the old paths…the paths that Y’Shua walked. The prophets of today only put a patch on the gaping wound that lawlessness produces. We do not have real peace with YHWH unless we obey his instructions (Torah).

    Jeremiah 6
    14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
    15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
    16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

    The false grace message may tickle our ears so that we feel like we have peace, but only obedience to YHWH’s commandments from a changed heart can perfect our love.

    1 John 2
    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked

    1 John 4
    17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
    18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
    19 We love him, because he first loved us.

    1 John 3
    20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
    21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
    22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

    Let’s keep His commandments and do those thing that are pleasing to Him…not just one or the other.

    The TORAH…will we walk therein…as Y’Shua walked therein?

    Shalom

  28. According to the Apostles, is Torah keeping appropriate for believers in Messiah?
    We were dead in our sins.
    Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    Sin is the transgression of YHWH’s Torah/law.
    1Jo 3:4b …for sin is the transgression of the law.
    We would not have known sin except for YHWH’s Torah/law revealing it.
    Ro 7:7b …Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:…
    Y’Shua was made to be sin for us.
    2Co 5:21a For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;…
    He died to take away our sin (Torah violations).
    1Jo 3:5a And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins;…
    While we were yet sinners (Torah breakers) Messiah died for us.
    Ro 5:8b …while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    We receive forgiveness by grace through faith in His sacrifice.
    Eph 2:8a For by grace are ye saved through faith;…
    Faith does not nullify YHWH’s Torah.
    Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    Grace does not give us freedom to sin (break YHWH’s Torah).
    Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are…under grace? God forbid.
    In Y’Shua is no sin (transgression of Torah).
    1Jo 3:5b …in him is no sin.
    We are to walk in His steps.
    1Pe 2:21b-22a …leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin,…
    If we sin (break the Torah) we have an advocate.
    1Jo 2:1b …And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    If we live in sin (transgressing the Torah/law) we do not know Him.
    1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    Unrighteousness is sin (transgression of Torah).
    1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:…
    Those that are righteous do righteousness.
    1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom.
    1Co 6:9a Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
    The Torah teaches us how to be righteous.
    2Ti 3:16 All scripture…is profitable for…instruction in righteousness:
    We are to be doers of the Torah and not hearers only.
    Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    The Torah is righteous, just and good.
    Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    The Torah is not sin.
    Ro 7:7a What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid.
    But transgressing the Torah is.
    1Jo 3:4b …for sin is the transgression of the law.
    It would seem that it is not sin to keep the Torah and that it is sin not to keep it.

    Shalom

  29. I guess nobody is reading this blog, or no one wants to discuss the NT passages I have brought up. It does seem that there are many pro-Torah possibilities in the “New Testament” when we read it with an open mind. I’ll check back form time to time in case someone wants to dialogue.

    Shalom

  30. Lewis: If I hear the words, “fell at his feet as dead” Rev. 1:17 it sounds very similiar to falling without the use of facilties, otherwise falling with the use of facilties is not falling as dead. So most likely Yochanan/John lost the use of his body. As far as standing in His presence, both being on the ground or standing a…re permitted, and sometimes caused, depending on what is desired by Eloheem/God.

    Notice Daniel was awake, lost strength, then heard the words, then fell asleep that is a form of being as dead. Then strength was given when the hand touched which caused Daniel to be lifted up. “Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me:for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. And, beho…ld, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
    Daniel 10:8-10”

    Eeyob/Job shows an ex. of shaking as a result of El/God, in this case seemingly the fear of HaYah/The Lord from His Ruach/Spirit, there can be different reasons for shaking in His will. “Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake. Eeyob/Job 4:14”

    Someone can quake or shake in the will of El/God. “And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Daniel 10:7” Sometimes the Ruach/Spirit causes that activity, notice those that fled from Daniel, seemingly because of their quaking, their could include Daniel.

    Another way to know the truth of this is “As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Yochanan/John 18:6” This scr. is about judgment, but in effect we are all judged since we must die in order to live through Messiah, also this falling can happen in other ways.

  31. Lewis: Speaking in different languages shouldn’t be forbidden as scriptures say, but brother Paul shared that if there is no interpreter then they should speak to themselves and Eloheem/God.

  32. Trances in Yehoshua HaMeshiach/Jesus the Christ are in His Ruach/Spirit. Brother Peter went into a trance, and so did others.

  33. Dangerous Bo,

    Don’t forget you can always call in to share your views for discussion on the air. You know I strongly differ with your position, but I do appreciate you taking the time to post so diligently. That being said, it appears that, for the most part, the subject is “talked out” here in the forum and, until I do some online debates on the subject and bring in some new readers through it, there’s not a whole lot new to discuss.

    But again, a call to the Line of Fire is the best way to hear and be heard.

  34. Dangerous Bo, I really appreciate your recognition & zeal of the importance of Torah, as I to very much love Torah, and try to apply the relevant parts to my life. With that said, let us consider David in the Tanach loved Torah too, yet He ate what is not lawful for him to eat(the showbread(presencebread)) according to Torah. He went against Torah in that sense, but it was Eloheem/God’s will for Him to do that, so in essence since it was Eloheem/God’s will He didn’t sin against Eloheem/God, He went according to the leading of the Ruach/Spirit. So also the time that Messiah had His disciples gather food on the Shabbat/Sabbath didn’t have a transgress the Torah either, even though it is against the Torah. Why would that be the case? There are two things taking place here, one is obedience to Torah, and the other is obedience to the rest of the prophets. See the prophets reveal more of the will of Eloheem/God for each time period, remember the scr. “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7” Yehoshua/Jesus is a prophet who revealed the secrets of Eloheem/God, and His will, in other words the RuachHakodesh/The Holy Spirit led Him in the way He was to go, and to teach, also then He led the other apostles in the Bereeth Chadasha/N.C. This shows that Eloheem/God can complete Torah, and the prophets in the way He wants too, having people do what He wants them to do in each time period, sometimes doing Torah, and sometimes doing other things, because everyone has done Torah through the Messiah in one way or another, meaning they have discovered Him who justifies all regardless of whether they do the shadow of relevant Torah customs, or not. The idea is everyone that is led by the Ruach/Spirit of Eloheem/God is a child of Eloheem/God, and Eloheem/God can have them do things not only in the way of a Law, but also in a way of eternal life. Eternal life is Eloheem/God, and He wrote the Torah, and does His Torah in the way He wants, and establishes it when He wants. So we see information about restoration of all things. Also when considering the ark of the Covenant of Moshe/Moses we see the mercy seat is above the law that was underneath. So then the law is important to Eloheem/God, but He is above His own law, He establishes His chesed(mercy, righteous judgement, justice, kindness, and love) in the way He wants. He is above the Torah, and therefore can lead people to walk in that say way, the eternal life way. “But now we are delivered from the Torah(law), that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit(Spirit), and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6” “Who also has made us able ministers of the Brit Chadasha(new testament); not of the letter, but of the spirit(Spirit): for the letter kills, but the Ruach(spirit, Spirit) gives life. 2 Cor. 3:6”
    You see in essence we are supposed to be in HaYah/The Lord on the mercy seat, and He in us, He is really the Word, so we are over the Torah/Law the letter, and just like HaYah/The Lord chooses to accomplish different ways by being above Torah, because He is Ruach/Spirit, also to accomplish Torah we do that to in Messiah, and Messiah said He is in Yah/Lord and Eloheem/God of all, so we are too. “For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor. 5:21” Notice we are to “…be made the righteousness of Eloheem(God) in Him”, the Him is Meshiach Yehoshua HaYahuweh/Christ Jesus the Lord. So since Eloheem/God is above His Torah it means different things, One He does things in the way that He wants, and another is He establishes all of His Word in the way He wants, another is He establishes Torah in the way He wants. So also we see another aspect of what Messiah taught by being led by Eloheem/God, and going according to the prophets, He taught people to not try to hurt physically in a physical means any of their enemies, rather to love them, and baruk/bless them. Notice Messiah says don’t do the eye for an eye anymore, or the others that are listed. “Ye have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Matt. 5:38-42”

  35. Tr.,

    The Pharisees had a habit of accusing Y’Shua and His disciples of breaking Torah when in fact they were only breaking the oral law/commandments of men. This is another case in point:

    Matthew 12
    1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
    2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
    3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
    4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
    5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
    6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
    7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
    8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

    If the disciples would have been violating Torah, as the Pharisees accused them, Y’Shua would not have said that they were guiltless. There is nothing in the Torah that forbids popping a bit of grain in ones mouth. They were not harvesting or cooking. They were guiltless because they were not transgressing the law. The priests, on the other hand, were blameless. There is a difference. The priests, were commanded to do work on the Shabbat, and so they were blameless for doing things that others could not do on the Shabbat.

    As I am sure you know, the Torah prescribes letting the land have a Sabbath. On those years it is not lawful to harvest grain from ones field, but it is lawful to eat the grain from the field. So we see the principle that to eat from the field is not harvesting and is not a violation of the seven year Sabbath or the weekly Sabbath.

    There is also a law that allows for eating from a field that is not ones own, while passing through, but it is unlawful to “put the sickle to thy neighbor’s” grain. So the disciples were not stealing either.

    I see your analogy about the mercy seat being above the law, but I do not agree that it is OK to break the law. YHWH does have mercy upon us but there are very few extenuating circumstances that would be cause for violating Torah. One could make the case for EMT’s and doctors being exempt on Sabbath, but what if every one kept the Sabbath…there would be very, very few accidents to respond to. So the exception is multiplied many, many times by the violation of Torah in the first place.

    If ones animal falls in a pit it is good to work to get it out on the Sabbath, but according to Torah we are supposed to cover pits so that this kind of thing doesn’t happen on any day, let alone on Sabbath. It would seem that the violation of Torah should be very seldom necessary, but the modern Christian view makes it very commonplace. Truly, the commandments of men have made YHWH’s Torah of none effect. Lawlessness is increasing as our love grows colder and colder. As both the NT and OT teach, real love for YHWH is shown in keeping His commandments. The habit of violating Torah is proof, according to John, that we do not know YHWH.

    If I am zealous for Torah, it is not for Torah in and of itself. I am zealous for loving YHWH with our whole heart, soul, mind , and strength and our neighbors as ourselves. This makes knowing and keeping Torah important as Torah is YHWH’s instruction book on what love is.

    Messiah loved His father and us by completely adhering to Torah. He also taught us to lay down our lives for one another. Maybe dying to our own idea of love/commandments of men and living by EVERY WORD that proceeds from YHWH’s mouth is true love.

    Shalom

  36. So the fact that the instruction in the Torah stated for not gathering food on the Shabbat is oral law? No, it is Torah, it is in the Torah, and a part of the commands. People according to the letter of Torah are not to gather food on Shabbat/Sabbath. So we can see Messiah was led by HaRuach(The Spirit, Wind, Breath), and the Wind goes where He wants to go, and leads in the way He wants to lead as instructed. Messiah did do Torah, even in more than one way, but He also did the prophets, because both must be completed. Since He is the Meshiach(Christ, Anointed One), He is led by Eloheem/God in the way Eloheem/God desires, and He leads His people in the way Eloheem/God desires, sometimes doing Torah, and sometimes doing the prophets. The letter of all of the Word works with the Ruach/Spirit, so the combination of the two bring into the perfect will of Eloheem/God.

  37. Tr.,

    I believe that you are referring to the command to gather manna on 6 days but not to gather or cook it on Sabbath. Correct?

    First, the disciples were not gathering and/or carrying even a meals worth of grain, but simply eating a bit as they went. They might not have had even enough grain in their hands at one time to equal a slice of bread. No burden carrying or gathering or harvesting or cooking was involved.

    Second, Messiah said that they were guiltless not forgiven for breaking Torah.

    Third, the Pharisees had many added rules that the disciples were in violation of. As we see throughout the Gospels, the Pharisees were always accusing them for breaking these rules. It is likely the same here.

    Fourth, it is not forbidden work to lift your slice of bread and eat it on Sabbath. If the disciples were just reaching down to waist level and putting grain in their mouths, what is the significant difference?

    I would rather believe Messiah that they were guiltless (no Torah violation involved) than believe the Pharisees accusations which are seen to be in error throughout the Gospels.

    Shalom

  38. The manna had to be gather on the sixth day, before the Shabbat. Yah showed it was not His will in Torah for them to so much as go outside to get manna, which can be understood for any food too. He didn’t provide them the opportunity to gather, or get any manna on the Shabbot, so the disciples that went outside to get the food were going against Torah, and still were blameless. “Or have you not read in the law, how that on the Shabbat(sabbath) days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? Matt. 12:5” This is an example of doing something against Torah, but still being blameless, in other words not sinning, rather, doing as the Ruach/Spirit leads to do.

  39. Doing Torah can be done in different ways, meaning the obedient way of doing Torah, and the way of when Eloheem/God said He would go against the people if they turned away from Him. Messiah was doing both in His life, because of different reasons, one was to establish something better, and another was because of the disobedience of Yisrael/Israel. When Eloheem/God chose to establish different Covenants He did so at least for two reasons, to establish something better, and to punish the disobedient. That is also what Yahuweh did through Messiah to establish a better Covenant, and because of the disobedience of His people. “But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better Covenant, which was established upon better promises. Hebrews 8:6”

  40. Tr.,

    I think that you are reading things into the scripture that it does not say. Messiah could not be a sinless sacrifice if He did not live the Torah perfectly. If He taught us not to do even the least commandment then he not only becomes least in the kingdom but we do not have a savior. (Mat. 5:19) The Holy Spirit cannot lead us to sin. Transgressing the Torah is sin. It is the carnal mind that cannot submit to Torah. The Spirit causes us to fulfill the Torah.

    Romans 8
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    The disciples did not leave their dwellings to gather food to cook. They were on their way to assemble for a holy convocation and were snacking on the way. If you cannot see this, so be it.

    Shalom

  41. Brother, here is a part of the scr. you said. Romans 8:4
    4 That the righteousness of the Torah(law) might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Now if all of the Torah needs to be done by us to be righteous, then you would be saying to me, that the eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth, and the other parts of physical violence must still be done? So are you saying it is ok for physically hurt other people through physical means?
    Also if the righteousness of Torah is about obeying all Torah then you would need to do physical animal sacrifices right now to be perfect, but we know it is not the will of Eloheem/God at this time for animal sacrifices. That will be an acceptable practice in the 1,000 year reign, and not before. Jews that don’t believe in Messiah don’t serve Messiah, they serve their own agenda, and satan. The individuals that believe in Messiah and serve and love Him, can offer an acceptable Levitical animal sacrifice in the 1,000 year reign.
    Messiah established a different better Covenant.
    “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. Hebrews 8:7” Notice the context, the second being referred to is Messiah’s Covenant, the Covenant that Moshe/Moses established did have fault, because it was a shadow of the true substance. “For the Torah(law) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Hebrews 10:1” Yehoshua HaMeshiach/Jesus the Messiah is the very image, and the good things to come. “And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the Torah(law) of Moshe(Moses). Acts 13:39” “And the Torah(law) is not of faith: but, The man that does them shall live in them. Meshiach(Christ) hath redeemed us from the curse of the Torah(law), being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Galatians 3:12-13” This means what it says, the things in Torah that brought curses are destroyed by Messiah, He destroyed them, that means different things, one is the curses that were pronounced for disobedience are destroyed, and another is the curses that would have resulted from not doing Torah have been destroyed. Messiah is the spiritual Word, and from Messiah came the created natural Word, so the spiritual is more important than the natural, and decides the meaning of the natural. The natural Word is everything that is the letter written, the spiritual Word is Him, and Him deciding which parts of His letter He will do next. The letter is useful, and a blessing, but Yahuweh Yehoshua Messiah/Lord Jesus Christ decides which part is going to happen now, and in the future. So we are led by Him in the way He wants, and not by just considering certain parts of the letter.

  42. This next scr. shows the righteousness of Torah is different than just keeping all of Torah, even physical circumcision is a part of keeping Torah, but here we see people can keep the righteousness of Torah without being physically circumsized. “Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the Torah(law), shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Romans 2:26” That being said the righteousness of Torah has to do with being led by Eloheem/God, and Him teaching us. “That the righteousness of the Torah(law) might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4” “But now the righteousness of Eloheem(God) without the Torah(law) is manifested, being witnessed by the Torah(law) and the prophets Romans 3:21” There is a difference between just doing the letter of what Torah says, and doing what the Ruach/Spirit leads to do, the Ruach/Spirit leads to consider Torah, and the prophets. Now we can understand David was a prophet, and He was led by Eloheem/God in the Tanach(O.C.) to eat the showbread(presence bread), but that was against Torah for Him to do, so that means He was doing that prophetically even if He didn’t know that was a prophetic action. Eloheem/God didn’t condemn Him for the action, because Eloheem/God provided the way for Him to consider both the Torah, and the prophets. Messiah considered both the Torah and prophets too, and did what was relevant in how RuachHakodesh lead Him, also Messiah prepared the way for more of the full leading of RuachHakodesh/The Holy Spirit, so that more of Eloheem/God’s perfect will would be able to be done, the curtain was destroyed so that we could, and would not only being able to go into the blessings that are in the Most Kadosh/Holy place on earth, but to go past those blessings, even into more blessings in the Most Kadosh/Holy place in shamayim/heaven. “RuachHakodesh(The Holy Spirit) this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Hebrews 9:8” “But Meshiach(Christ) being come an high kohen(priest) of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:11” “For Meshiach(Christ) is not entered into the kadosh(holy) places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Eloheem(God) for us: Hebrews 9:24” Notice Messiah past the One made with hands, to go to what is perfect, and more of a blessing the tabernacle in shamayim/heaven itself. We too go past the one made with hands, and enter into the shamayim/heaven tabernacle to be with Eloheem/God in His perfect will. “And if ye be Messiah’s(Christ’s), then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:29” “And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. Romans 4:12” That means people can be righteous as long as they have the faith of Abraham, in other words they are led by Eloheem Ruach/God’s Spirit. “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the Torah(law), but through the righteousness of faith. Romans 4:13” “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the Torah(law), but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Romans 4:16”

  43. Tr.,

    If you haven’t already, please read posts 65,66 & 67 above. This will help you better understand my position.

    You wrote:
    “Brother, here is a part of the scr. you said. Romans 8:4
    4 That the righteousness of the Torah(law) might be fulfilled in us,
    who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Now if all of the Torah needs to be done by us to be righteous, then
    you would be saying to me, that the eye for an eye, and tooth for a
    tooth, and the other parts of physical violence must still be done?
    So are you saying it is ok for physically hurt other people through
    physical means?”

    I think you misunderstand the “eye for eye…” passages if you think that Torah approves personal revenge.(Ex.21:24; Le. 24:20; De.19:21; Le.19:18)

    These passages are in the context of a civil/criminal justice system with judges, witnesses and evidence. The idea is that the punishment must fit the crime and that restitution be made to a damaged party. Beyond this, it is stated that this legal concept would cause Israel to be careful to not bear false witness. In Matthew 5 it seems that Y’Shua was addressing what was commonly “said” about getting even and not on what was written in Torah. Also, Y’Shua could be saying that we should not have to be made to do what is right by the court and that we should give more than is required. This does not negate the court or the just ruling in a restitution case. Either way He upholds Torah’s standards. He does not change or eliminate the YHWH’s instructions.

    I am not saying that all we have to do to be righteous is to keep Torah. This would be self righteousness. I am saying exactly what the scriptures say. Those that are righteous do righteousness. The Spirit causes us to keep the righteousness of the Torah. The Carnal mind cannot subject itself to YHWH’s Torah. If we find ourselves fighting against keeping Torah, we are being carnally minded instead of walking in the Spirit.

    Romans 8
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    It is simply stated above in 1 John…breaking the Torah is sin…a truly righteous person will do righteousness…if we continue to live a Torah breaking lifestyle we are of the devil. Y’Shua was manifested to take away our sins not to, by His Spirit, lead us to break Torah (sin).

    Shalom

  44. Please answer me this brother Bo. How come Yah instructed them in Shemot 16:29 to not go out of their homes, when considering they didn’t go to get food?
    “See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. Shemot/Ex. 16:29”

  45. Brother Bo, do you believe if someone carried something heavy on the Shabbat that it constitues work, and shouldn’t be done on Shabbat? For example if someone carried a table, or picked up a sofa, ect. I do believe that is considered to be work, especially if they move those things from one house to another. What do you think?

  46. Cont. Brother Bo, do you believe that picking up stones, or sticks, or is against what the Torah said to do on the Shabbot?

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