213 Comments
  1. Isa 66:2 Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the Lord. “This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word.

    Let’s be done with it, Bo. What do we, who are in Christ, need to do to be saved? Don’t skirt the issue, just tell us in your own understanding exactly which parts of the Mosaic Covenant we are to keep.

    And I’ve been neglecting to bring out certain truths that I’ve heard developing over the months of discussions here. If the ingrafted branches are not to boast themselves against the natural branches, then, surely, the same is required of the natural branches.

    Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-

    Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

    Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)-

    Eph 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

    Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

    Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

    Eph 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

    Eph 2:16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

    Eph 2:17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.

    Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

  2. Sheila,

    Here is every instance of G3544…it simply means lawyer the translators have not been faithful in the Titus 3 instance.

    Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer (3544), asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
    Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers (3544) rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
    Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer (3544) stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    Luke 11:45 Then answered one of the lawyers (3544), and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.
    Luke 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers (3544)! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
    Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers (3544)! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
    Luke 14:3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers (3544) and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
    Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law (3544); for they are unprofitable and vain.
    Titus 3:13 Bring Zenas the lawyer (3544) and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them.

    If you will do a little investigation, you will find that there are many words that have G3551 behind them etymologically but you cannot use the definition of G3551 as a substitute. Only if one has a certain affinity to the doctrine of the “law being nonbinding”, will he depart from the plain meaning of the word. The context is about departing from good works (2 Tim. 3:16-17) and choosing out which laws one likes and sin which is the transgression of the law. It was the religious lawyers of Messiah’s day that would interpret the law to mean something it never meant. It is the Christian doctrine artists that do the same to the scriptures today. 1800 years of departing from the faith and practices of the apostles makes it very difficult to see the scriptures without a antinomian mindset.

    Shalom

  3. Bo,

    I did not apply the verse out of context, and I now “choose” (and you may call me a heretic if you wish) to follow Paul’s advice in the verse following what I quoted.

    Sheila,

    Bo is correct, Nomikos in the NT does normally refer to a “lawyer”. In Titus 3.9 it is in the form “nomikas”, and the same word (but in a different declension) “nomikon” is used in v. 13 re: Zenas the “lawyer”.

    It is instructive to note, however, that (Zenas excepting) a nomikos in scripture is generally a stirrer of dissension and an enemy of the Gospel. See Luke 11.45-52 to see what our Lord had to say about “nomikoi”.

    Nomikos also carries the general meaning of “pertaining to the law” – hence its use in Titus 3.9.

  4. I am not ashamed to be called a “Christian” as it is the Greek language that has come down to my ancestors, not Hebrew. I learned some Hebrew from the hebrew4christians website, but, it is not my native language. The New Testament was written in Greek and so it is.

    I suppose all those who were truly Christians of the last 2000 years are all damned. Then, we truly are, above all people, to be pitied.

    And how is the Lord, then, Glorified in His saints? It seems He will only have a few to gather to Him at His appearing; and as I said, hades will be overflowing–I don’t think so.

    “For God, the Father, so loved the world that He sent His only and Beloved Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but, should have everlasting life.”

    God is not the Author of confusion, He is the Author of Salvation.

    Your animosity towards Christians is astounding, as you evidently separate yourself as a Messianic Jew. I am a Christian–not a Jew–not a Gentile, but, a new creation in Messiah, Jesus, Christ, Yeshua, the Hope of Israel, the First and the Last, the King of kings and Lord of lords, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, the only Begotten of the Father, the Holy One of Israel, My Lord and My God!

    If you choose to continue in this same vein, Bo, I, too, will have nothing further to discuss with you. The Lord is my judge, not you. You would do well to humble yourself.

    Why did Messiah have to go to the cross? He could have come and said, “Keep the law of Moses and you will be saved.” I submit that you don’t understand the love of the Lord in purchasing you with His own blood.

    “That God (the Father) was in the Son, reconciling the world to Himself.” Not only reconciling the Jews, but, the “world” to Himself.

  5. Tom–Nomikos also carries the general meaning of “pertaining to the law” – hence its use in Titus 3.9.

    I thought that is what I was showing?

    And the lexicon for Strong’s G3544 – nomikos means:

    1) pertaining to the law,

  6. I’ll not be drawn into any discussion here other than what we began with, which is end time theologies. If anyone wants to continue that I’ll check in from time to time.

  7. Sheila,

    I am not a Messianic or a Jew. I have said nothing in regard to Hebrew verses Greek. What in the world are you talking about? I have never said or alluded to the idea that keeping any law, Biblical or otherwise, can save you. I maintain that the blood of Messiah is the only sacrifice for sin. I am not your judge. I agree.

    The word of YHWH is quick and powerful and shows us if we just have thoughts of obeying or if we have made up our minds (fully intend) to obey. The word of YHWH states unequivocally that we are to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy and many more things that are signs and proofs that we are holy to YHWH. If you or anyone else refuses to obey the straight forward statements of the word of YHWH, it proves the lack of true resolve to obey. Something must be in the way. False doctrine, peer pressure, lust of the flesh, pride of life etc., get in the way of being able to subject ourselves to YHWH’s law. A carnal minded person just can’t bring themselves to accept YHWH’s law…because it is spiritual.

    Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    Romans 8
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Titus 3
    10 A man that is an heretick (chooser) after the first and second admonition reject;
    11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth (transgresses the law), being condemned of himself.

    A man that sinneth because he has disputes with YHWH’s law, condemns himself. It is not I that condemn you or anyone. The heretic that will not simply accept YHWH’s word, but must relegate parts of it to being void, is a chooser. No way around it. In the new covenant YHWH writes His law on our hearts. If we can’t allow Him to do this, what does it say of our love and commitment to Him?

    Shalom

  8. Tom–
    Nomikos also carries the general meaning of “pertaining to the law” – hence its use in Titus 3.9.

    I thought that is what I was showing?

    And the lexicon for Strong’s G3544 – nomikos means:

    1) pertaining to the law,

    Oh! So it is. Sorry about that, Sheila – I guess I didn’t read as closely as I thought!

  9. Here is an end time theology verse for us:

    Revelation 22
    10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is UNCLEAN, let him be UNCLEAN still: and he that is righteous (1 John 3:7), let him be righteous still: and he that is holy (2 Cor. 7:1), let him be holy still.
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give EVERY man according as his WORK shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a LIE.

    Shalom

  10. I see what I did now. I edited the two thoughts I had together, melding the point I was making.

    “They all read the same. “Pertaining to the Law.” The etymology of the Greek “nomikos” is G3551 – nomos, which is what is spoken of here and is translated as simply any one discussing the law as being a “lawyer”.”

    ““nomikos” is G3551 – nomos, [meaning law, is not the meaning used here. “Nomikos”] which is what is spoken….

    But, I guess anyone discussing things “pertaining to the law” are not necessarily lawyers. (Especially today! :))

  11. Bo,

    What I am talking about is many and various statements like this:

    “It is the Christian doctrine artists that do the same to the scriptures today. 1800 years of departing from the faith and practices of the apostles makes it very difficult to see the scriptures without a antinomian mindset.”

    “15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a LIE.”

    And I have many other offensive statements that I put into word pad documents that I thought I would respond to, but, then, I decided not to answer them. So, it’s your choice of words, and your skewed theology and your false dichotomy of Scripture and your making the people that the Lord came to save into hellbound dogs and liars. I won’t get into it, because I see it’s useless to continue to debate this as you honestly believe that salvation is only reserved for those following the Mosaic covenant. Nevermind the Lord’s New Covenant, it’s all about the old being better.

    If the Mosaic Covenant could bring salvation, there was no need for Messiah to die for us.

    Act 11:1 The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.

    Act 11:2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him

    Act 11:3 and said, “You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

    Act 11:4 Peter began and explained everything to them precisely as it had happened:

    Act 11:5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was.

    Act 11:6 I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air.

    Act 11:7 Then I heard a voice telling me, ‘Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.’

    Act 11:8 “I replied, ‘Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’

    Act 11:9 “The voice spoke from heaven a second time, ‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.’

    Act 11:10 This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.

    Act 11:11 “Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying.

    Act 11:12 The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man’s house.

    Act 11:13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.

    Act 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

    Act 11:15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.

    Act 11:16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with [fn]water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

    Act 11:17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?”

    Act 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

    Goodnight all.

  12. Sheila,

    I have never said that keeping any law will save anyone. That I quote Revelation, and you do not like what it says, is not my fault. Those that keep YHWH’s commandments will be given the right to eat of the tree of life and enter the gates of the city. Do you think otherwise? There is nothing obscure in that passage. We will know them by their fruits. Those that accept the new covenant let YHWH write His commandments on their hearts.

    When something is on our hearts it is easy to do, because we love to do it. We show what is written on our hearts by what we do. If we look into the mirror of YHWH’s perfect law and do not match up with what He calls righteous and holy, we need to confess and repent and let Him write His law on our hearts so that we will stop transgressing His law. Getting saved is only the beginning of a walk along a narrow path. The idea is to continue up the path, not stand at the gate and congratulate each other that we made it in.

    Paul told Timothy that the Torah was to teach us about true righteousness and true good works. It is for correcting our false doctrine. If we disbelieve what it says righteous behavior is, we will continue to sin (transgress the law). If we remain unrepentant sinners, we are not following the narrow way. If we do not adjust our doctrine to match its commandments, we will continue to break those very commandments. If we pridefully insist that we are doing what is right, when the Torah reveals that we are not, we are deceiving ourselves.

    We have been granted repentance unto life, but we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We are to spur one another on to love and good works…not just love, which is not really true love unless it is accompanied by obedience. Our love is cold if we are partaking in habitual law breaking.

    The great in the kingdom do and teach others to do every last little commandment. The least in the kingdom are those that relax even the smallest commandment. The habitual law breakers are not allowed into the kingdom in the end. Surely you are familiar with the scriptures that say these things by now. It is time to deal with them, not hold out for what feels right or what makes sense to a worldly culture.

    Shalom

  13. Tom, #41, see Acts 2:38 & 39. The New Covenant was made initially with Israel, and a remnant so to speak embraced it and took the Gospel to the Nations. Officially the chosen Nation rejected Him, the object of Peter’s early Acts public speaking to the chosen Nation.

    Bo, why here? On so many other forums, blogs, comment sections or whatever you wish to call them the subject of what Jesus Apostles taught were His commandments to be responded to–obeyed if you will–were parceled out and contextually cited. Jesus commandments are cited in His words and those of the Apostles, and we would be well to pay attention to these until the light shines brighter and brighter until that Day. Recall when we went over what I John called His commandments, from the beginning of receiving His teaching by HIM??? HEAR YOU HIM! was the word of God at the Baptism, not HEAR YOU MOSES!!!

    Tom, picking back up our charge for coming to this string, In the mention of the Millenium in Revl. 20, it is mentioned 6 times, hardly a figurative reinforcement.

  14. Bo,

    I honestly could write a book in response to your first paragraph alone!

    Go to the Mosaic Covenant thread and please, please, lay out for us EXACTLY what you mean by this statement:

    “Those that accept the new covenant let YHWH write His commandments on their hearts.”

    Which ones, Bo?

    List everyone of those we should be keeping and I’ll consider it. I want a list–other than the Ten Commandments. Just number them for me.

    #1–?
    #2–?

  15. Sheila,

    You could write a lot of books…maybe you should be an author 🙂

    In short, all the commandments that are possible for us to keep. Men can’t keep the ones specifically for women. Some are only for the priests. Some only come into play for Israel when they have an earthly kingdom.

    But this topic is not for this thread. I just might post on the Mosaic Covenant thread.

    Shalom

  16. Sheila,

    “You could write a lot of books…maybe you should be an author”

    Others have suggested that too. I’ll pray about it!

    🙂

  17. It is just that you keep saying you could “write a book” about different things I say. Now would those books sell???? 🙂

  18. I know what you were talking about; I’m aware I’ve said it before. My Mother in law and I get into hours of discussions. They say you don’t truly know a subject matter until you can argue it from opposite points of view.

    Oh, but, Bo, you supply so much good material to include…why don’t I just send you my first rough draft? If I took all of the rebuttals to your posts that I never submitted, I would have a good first, maybe even a second chapter already!

    Would it sell? I don’t know, obviously you’re not buying it!

  19. Tom,

    It’s taking me the longest time to go over the information in that link you gave about Premillennialism. I work on my response to it every so often, but, it’s already gotten so lengthy and I’m not even one fourth of the way into it.

    I don’t see how to condense it yet, but, I will and I’ll edit it and maybe do a few parts at a time.

  20. I have a question for anyone familiar with other translations, such as, the NIV, or, ESB. When doing searches for verses I have to use the KJV because that is what I am familiar with and I maybe just assumed that all other translations were taken from the KJV, especially where the Greek Lexicon for words used was the standard for those translations. Is this correct? And is there a separate concordance and lexicon for the NIV, or, the ESB?

    I understand that the recovering of ancient texts have unearthed different wording to various sentences or such. So, what is the standard used for the different translations?

    Anyone?

  21. Sheila,

    Watch that tendency to actually seek and find truth, it will lead you to being set free by the word of Christ being formed more fully in you! You seem to be asking if there is a standard ancient text of reference for all English translations. There are a few, and their are segments of certain books which grant further illumination on variant meanings of Bible passages.

    What may serve you better than attempting finding the “source” so to speak, would be a good computer program which parces out word meanings and interpretations from original texts of interlinear publication reference. This can be accomplished from using features of such inductive programs which may use any modern translation of the Bible, and permite showing the underlying Greek, or Hebrew word meanings, and the tenses used first word for word, then as to making passage sense, then an ever widening rendering for contextual sense.

    The problem with the KJV is that manuscrips for original passage study have become more available since its basis of assumptions. If you would like a beginning possiblity for such a considered pursuit you could go search for an in good shape copy of a word based study Bible at http://www.bookfinder.com and use one of those. I like the “Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study bible: New American Stqandard Bible” Also called “The Hebrew-Greeek Key Study Bible”, Executive Editor is Spiros Zodhtates, Th. D., with Baker and Kletzing. AMG Publishers, Chattanooga, TN. 37422 USA. The version I have on hand is @1990; others exist. You can also pick up a copy of the small paperback. “The New Testament Manuscripts, Are They Reliable”, by F.F. Bruce through the same source. To meet a small budget note that they carry in good shape used books, as well as new ones, and prices include shipment. These two sources can begin to grant an awareness of what sources are used and avaiolable for Bible translations. We are priveledged to be of a language group which offers great flexibiity and availability of translations. Zondervan offers an NIV study Bible on CR Rom which offers original word translation word for word, passage for passage, but with limited identification of tenses. It is reasonable in cost and will offer beginning orientation to how text translations are achieved.

    After I finish the University courses I am signed up for now in my employment field (GIS Analysis), I plan to take on-line classes as are offered on the Ask Dr. Brown website. You may find something on-line from an organization too which deals with the itch you wish to scratch.

  22. Tom, picking back up our charge for coming to this string, In the mention of the Millenium in Revl. 20, it is mentioned 6 times, hardly a figurative reinforcement.

  23. Tom, and all,

    Can we now pick up the four areas of exploration agreed to? I will be pleased if you can repaste in that which you may feel is unaddressed in these regards. Then I/we can pursue that contrast and comarison of Amillennialism vs. Premillennialism.

    My premise for belief in premillennialism is that God has promises made to Abraham, Moses, David, Israel and Judah, etc. which he must keep, and has included these in His Redemptive Planning.

  24. What I was trying to get at is the fact that the various renderings in the NIV, which I just recently began using, are not always the same as the KJV. I have the KJV memorized and I always use that to get to the verses I want to use. Using the NIV is like learning a foreign language right now! I have to use both. I have software and many study books already, together with online study sites and commentaries. I see already, though, things lost in translation from one to the other.

    I guess I wanted to know “Is there an original source” from which the newer translations are taken? Or, are they taken from a more readable and understandable version of the KJ? No itch; I merely want to be using the more correct rendering. I don’t mind switching around and back and forth, but, I’ve found some inconsistencies between the two which does, in fact, change the idea behind the verse. In dealing with the categorical events of end time theology this would become more pronounced.

  25. I was focusing on an outline to this statement by Tom:

    Here’s what I see in scripture:
    1) When Christ returns He immediately commences to a’judgin’ (Matt 25.31-32)
    2) Simultaneously, the resurrection of the body takes place (John 5.28-29)
    3) Following the judgment the righteous enter eternal rest/heaven, and the unrighteous enter eternal torment/hell (Matt 25.46, John 5.28-29)

    I was working, also, on responding to some statements in the link he provided, as he stated that that is how he views end time events. What else to do but to take some portions of it and bring them into discussion?

    If you would like to outline something at this time, please do and I’ll pick it up there as the other is lengthy and will be condensed when I’m finished.

    So, lead on..let’s begin.

  26. This my response, by way of sorting out the verses that go with the meaning of the Lord’s “appearing”, as opposed to the “parousia”. In His appearing, I’ve included the verses of those instances of that word used, as in, ephiphaneia. (G2015)

    I don’t see the judgment of “all” people at His appearing, as it is stated in Revelation that we are part of the “first resurrection. The final judgment at the White Throne is of all others.

    MY RESPONSE:
    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    1Jo 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, [fn] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
    2Ti 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
    NLT-2Ti 4:8 And now the prize awaits me–the crown of righteousness that the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on that great day of his return. And the prize is not just for me but for all who eagerly look forward to his glorious return.
    Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

    1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
    2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness2015 of his coming:
    Strong’s Number G2015 matches the Greek ἐπιφάνεια (epiphaneia), which occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

    1Ti 6:14 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing2015 of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing2015 of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing2015 and his kingdom; 2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing2015. Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing2015 of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    Tom–Also, the references to the resurrection in the Gospels and epistles seem to indicate that the bodily resurrection of the good and evil will all happen at once – so how then does this one section of Revelation overturn all of that evidence?
    2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (3952) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
    2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
    2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    Strong’s G3952 – parousia Strong’s Number G3952 matches the Greek παρουσία (parousia), which occurs 24 times in 24 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
    1) presence
    2) the coming, arrival, advent
    a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

    Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying , Tell us, when shall these things be ? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming3952, and of the end of the world? Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming3952 of the Son of man be . Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming3952 of the Son of man be . Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came , and took them all away ; so shall also the coming3952 of the Son of man be . 1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming3952. 1Cr 16:17 I am glad of the coming3952 of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied . 2Cr 7:6 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming3952 of Titus; 2Cr 7:7 And not by his coming3952 only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more. 2Cr 10:10 For [his] letters, say they , [are] weighty and powerful; but [his] bodily presence3952 [is] weak, and [his] speech contemptible . Phl 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming3952 to you again. Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed , not as in my presence3952 only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 1Th 2:19 For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming3952? 1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming3952 of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep . 1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming3952: 2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming3952 is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming3952 of the Lord. Behold , the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient ; stablish your hearts: for the coming3952 of the Lord draweth nigh . 2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2Pe 3:4 And saying , Where is the promise of his coming (3952)? for since the fathers fell asleep , all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming3952 of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved , and the elements shall melt with fervent heat ? 1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear , we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming3952.

    When we take the definition as outlined in the concordance, we can see where the judgment is aligned immediately with the second advent, as follows and as outlined above; notice 2a):

    Strong’s G3952 – parousia Strong’s Number G3952 matches the Greek παρουσία (parousia), which occurs 24 times in 24 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
    1) presence
    2) the coming, arrival, advent
    a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

    I look to a more sure word of prophesy given by the Lord, Himself, in His Word as outlined in His Revelation to John. That there are “two” resurrections, not one.

  27. In the Lord’s promises to the nation of Israel, it must answer to the question asked of Him before His ascention.

    Act 1:6 (KJV) — When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    I couldn’t copy the link I wanted to demonstrate the answer to the Lord’s diciples about the restoration of Israel, so, I’m just going to explain how to get there.

    On blueletterbible.org, you can get to the correlating verses as outlined in the book, “A Treasury of Scripture Knowledge”, by typing the “word or verse” in the box to the left of the main page where it says in big blue print, “Search the Bible.” Granted, all the verses given are not “always” applicable, but, 9 out of 10 times it is more than accurate and useful. When you search for that verse in the KJV, there will be 6 boxes to the right of the verse; click on the “K” box. This will take you to the correlating verses in Scripture Knowledge. That way you can, maybe, see where other verses tie in to the question the Disciples asked; “Will you at this time ‘restore the Kingdom to Israel’?” And once you search in the KJV, you can choose whichever version you want to use by clicking on the “V” in one of the six boxes. It gives you, ten, or so, different translations. I hope you understand my directions. Sorry, I couldn’t locate where to copy the URL address.

    They have the Hebrew and Greek Lexicons and “L” for commentaries. I’ll say up front, the only ones I use are Matthew Henry and JF&B, and I read Spurgeon when he pops up, even though I have reprints of all of his sermons too. I guess I like the flowery language… I’m not into all the others, so, don’t judge by whatever else you might find on it. Modern expositors seem to me to be entirely too sensational. I understand Dr. Brown recommends gateway.com, but, I started with this one a few years ago and got used to it. I haven’t checked on Gateway recently, but, years ago I don’t even think they had commentaries. (?) I own the complete set of Henry’s commentaries and while I don’t see the Church everywhere he does, he is well known to all who study the Bible. If someone can recommend another as thorough as he, or, Poole is, I would gladly look into it.

    I’m hoping to save up for Dr. Brown’s commentary on the book of Jeremiah. My extra change jug is almost empty right now!

  28. I’m somewhat dyslexic when it comes to left and right. So, the correction for this sentence is–to the “right of”!

    “..by typing the “word or verse” in the box to the left of the main page where it says in big blue print, “Search the Bible.””

  29. That didn’t work! I just tried it myself and got something different than what I was studying. I’ll work up the verses myself if anyone is still interested. The Lord answered the Apostles question only by putting it off, not, negating it.

    So, to pick up, then, with Revelation 20, this is what it says:

    Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.

    Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

    Rev 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

    Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

    Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

    Rev 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

    Rev 20:9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

    Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

    Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

    Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

    Rev 20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    We should be thinking on these verses as they speak to two separate resurrections, of which, we who are in Christ at His appearing together with the nation of Israel’s remnant having at last recognized Jesus as Messiah, will be grafted in and the body of Christ will be complete. None of us presently members of the Body of Christ will see Him again until the remnant of His brothers welcome Him with, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.” The man of sin will have already appeared and fooled many, but, none of the saints will be fooled, so don’t worry about it. We will be gathered as one to Christ at His appearing. Satan will be bound for a thousand years while Messiah is reigning from Jerusalem and His saints are reigning with Him. This is the first resurrection. There must be natural people or there would be no one for Satan to muster together from the four corners of the earth to come against the city of the Saints and Jerusalem for one last desperate attempt to battle God after he is released. The Lord’s “fury will come up in His face” and fire will come down from heaven and consume the wicked who came with him. Satan is now forever tormented in the lake of fire where the false prophet and the leader of the beast nation (he is referred to as a beast also) are already held. The last resurrection of the dead will take place and the white throne judgment will commence. Those not found written in the Lamb’s book of life will be cast away from the Lord forever. Are the souls of men eternal as they are made in the image of God, and so they spend eternity in one of two places? Their bodies being destroyed and their souls tormented into eternity? That is what it sounds like to me.

    We are given promises in the NT that we will reign with Christ. Who are we reigning over if we are all as the angels in heaven? There must be natural people. The wolf will lie down with the lamb; children will rest their hands on the nest of a viper and no one will hurt or destroy in the Lord’s Holy mount of Zion. Isaiah 11. These speak of Millennial events as none of these have yet to be realized. These are very important passages concerning Christ’s reign from Jerusalem.

    Isa 11:1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

    Isa 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD—

    Isa 11:3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;

    Isa 11:4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

    Isa 11:5 Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

    Isa 11:6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling [fn] together; and a little child will lead them.

    Isa 11:7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

    Isa 11:8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the viper’s nest.

    Isa 11:9 They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

    Isa 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.

    Isa 11:11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, [fn] from Cush, [fn] from Elam, from Babylonia, [fn] from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

    Isa 11:12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

    Isa 11:13 Ephraim’s jealousy will vanish, and Judah’s enemies [fn] will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.

    Isa 11:14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west; together they will plunder the people to the east. They will lay hands on Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites will be subject to them.

    Isa 11:15 The LORD will dry up the gulf of the Egyptian sea; with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand over the Euphrates River. [fn] He will break it up into seven streams so that men can cross over in sandals.

    Isa 11:16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people that is left from Assyria, as there was for Israel when they came up from Egypt.

    This is how I understand some things which are hard to understand. We saw in the scriptures, that the Lord was mistaken as a mere man immediately after His resurrection. Mary mistook Him for a gardener (and so He is) and the two men walking along and conversing with Him on the roadway mistook Him for a possible stranger, except that they said, “Did our hearts not burn within us when He opened up to us the Scriptures?” So, in that instance, He was clothed in a glorified, yet, not fully “transfigured” body. I believe we will be similarly clothed in the twinkling of an eye, when He gathers us to Him. But, we will not “shine as the stars forever”, such as the disiples saw Him transfigured in the garden with Moses and Elijah present, until the New Jerusalem decends from Heaven after the earth is purified by fire and all things are restored as before the fall of mankind. Heaven will be on Earth and God will be all in all. No more sorrow, no more curse, no more separation between God and man.

  30. The Greek Hebrew community scribed Septuagint (LXX) overshadows the Masoretic text (MT) as the most common source of the most accurate Tenach translations, with Isaiah and OT fragments verified by the Dead Sea Scrolls (not in the KJV sphere of reference). NT manuscripts are later renditions for the most part than the lost original Greek or Syriac documents, so later Greek, Syriac, and Latin manuscripts are now used for translation. These were not largely cross-referenceable until after the KJV rendering.

    The LXX has helped NT translations prophetic references to become more reliable. The NT documents date in part from AD/CE 130 forward, with most modern translations showing “textual variants” in footnotes coming from manuscipts found in libraries shared coknowledge much later. Greek New Testaments today (UBS and Nestle-Aland, e.g.) show all possible variants among manuscripts in some important passages instances, with sources from the Eastern and Western Churches coming to know of one another’s library manuscript holdings over time (as the world’s cross cultural communications increased since electric and electronic communications). These developments were not of the KJV, where the New American Standard Version is considered to date the most accurate verse by verse modern language translation (some say the NRSV). Corraborating new manuscript segments to the Septuagint have come into wider shared scholarship long after the KJV’s background material was used.

    The NIV is considered the most accurate for conveying faithful passages current English usage sense and meaning, not as to verse by verse word by word faithfulness. The NIV is being updated to address its criticisms as we write. Have you looked at the “New KJV”? The KJV has the long revered “accepted in the beloved” passage taked to heart by so many English speaking saints over time.

    I would sugggest looking up Bible manuscripts, Bible translations, and the Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls for on-line historical records of such(which did not exist as available for the most part when the KJV was done, where the KJV also looked at the Latin translations and employed earlier Martyrs translations into its language as well).

    I will wait for Tom to get to the other eschatology matters. There are validity statements in the Mt. of Olives discourse and in the NT letters, as well as in the primary source of the Revl. alluding to the the Prophets of Old for upholding the Millennium: in reference to the “First Resurrection” spoken of in Revl. 20. The “Second Resurrection”, a little bit later in Chapter 20, after the six mentions of the Millennium, holds the complete reference of the Lord to the Day of Judgement of your Matthew mention, Shelia.

    Just let me say now, that He and His saints are in his appearing and are caught up, when taking on Israel’s enemies from the wider world then invading the land in the latter times,of present Israel, then return with him to the Mt. apparently prior to the later second resurrection of raising all dead for the final judgment.

    I think our approach here would not be like discussions in the past of the law vs. the grace and liberty of Christ’s own Way and his own Commandments fulfillments, for the references differ in many ways as to discovery. There will be unanswered questions, and evidence of bearing on whatever interpretation of eschatology one asserts.

  31. Thank you for that, Jay. Very clear and consise. It got right to the heart of the matter I was concerned with.

    In the post about the “coming” of the Lord the paragraph division did not carry over when pasting to the comment section. I had included a statement by Tom and was trying to show where (maybe) he and others got that from.

    Tom–”Also, the references to the resurrection in the Gospels and epistles seem to indicate that the bodily resurrection of the good and evil will all happen at once – so how then does this one section of Revelation overturn all of that evidence?”

    They do speak of the end of all things in that way. Remember though, that the Lord said to them, “I have many other things to say to you, but, you cannot bear them now,” I’m not certain He was only speaking of His death and resurrection. He could have expounded the scriptures that we can now interpret as speaking to the “reason” they asked Him about Israel’s “restoration”. It is because they were familiar with the prophesies that spoke of it. That is not at all the focus of the New Testament Scriptures. No. They were to focus on carrying His Name and His Salvation as witnesses to the ends of the earth. “Don’t worry about the times the Father has reserved in His own power; they will come when He wills them to; This is your commission and what you are to focus on.” The Lord did give to us “signs” to look for preceding His return. The waves and the seas roaring, together with signs in the heavens, as I’ve mentioned before, nation against nation and kingdom against Kingdom. Then we are to look up because we are expecting His soon return. First on the scene, though, is the “false messiah” imitating Him; by signs and wonders and miracles many will be fooled; last of which our Jewish brothers and sisters will cry out for their “true Messiah, Jesus” and will be in bitterness of soul for Him when they realize He was the crucified Messiah of 2000 years ago… Let us pray for them daily that they do not worship this false Messiah as they will be rejected forever. Let us never stop proclaiming Messiah to the Jews and all the more as we see the day approaching.

    There “are” many verses that seem to say these will happen immediately upon Christ’s return. I think it could refer to those who claim Christ but will not be considered His when He “comes to be glorified in His saints”. It could be that the focus of the NT scripture is on salvation and mercy and grace with, of course, the rejection of those who reject salvation. We can’t speak of salvation without saying what they are saved from. To be saved from our sins, is to be saved from the wrath of God by accepting His Perfect Sacrifice for our sins–His Only Son.

    I know well the verses you speak of, Tom. But, their understanding came before the Last Word of the Lord came to John by the final Revelation and consummation of all things. There were specifics always hidden until the Lord chose to reveal them. Remember that none of the Disciples “realized” that the Lord would be crucified and suffer all that was foretold of Him in the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms. Peter was even rebuked as Satan speaking, that surely the Lord would not suffer such things, as they expected Him to come to reign then and there. So, there must have been other events as well that were not expounded on immediately as that was not to be their focus. And I would stake my money on the Lord’s more sure word of prophesy and personal exposition of scriptures before anyone elses.

    But, if you like, we can bring those verses up and discuss how they either, compliment the Lord’s word in His Revelation, or, if they are a condensed view of events stretching further than they could, at that time, see.

    Until I began reading Revelation almost daily, I believed what you do. But, then I had to rethink things in light of the Lord having the preemminence in “all” things.

  32. Sheila,

    It seems to me that your following of the two words contrasting the function of the Return in the NT should permit Tom to examine other scriptures as to word useage, also literal direct references made, and as to details too carried forward from the related promises first made extant in the Tenach. When we start with Abraham’s literal promises received in Genesis, as to the descriptors of the boundaries of the Land for his direct decendants, it is impossible to spiritualize this to the rule of the Spirit in the church since Jesus visitation, simply put. Add this to the other end of the canon framework’s promised six specifics of the thousand years and we see a literal, not a figurative framework for eschatology.

    What was the string number where you asked about Daniel’s timeline references, Sheila?

  33. Jabez, I don’t understand what you mean by this:

    “What was the string number where you asked about Daniel’s timeline references, Sheila?”

    Also, the verses relating to literal promises was outlined by me in post # 119. Is that what you are referring to? If there are some you would want to post that speak to those things, maybe, it would be more helpful to see them and read them anyway. I was trying to keep the posts short, but, I don’t see where that is possible in order for all to follow along.

    While you posted I had been working on what I’ll post next for the last few hours. I’ll wait for better clarification on your other question and statements.

  34. Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

    Mar 13:19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. {So, was the “time of Jacob’s trouble” the Holocaust that will “never be equaled again”?}

    Mar 13:20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

    Mar 13:21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ [fn] !’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it.

    Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.

    Mar 13:23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

    Mar 13:24 “But in those days, following that distress, ” ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

    Mar 13:25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ [fn]

    Mar 13:26 “At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

    Mar 13:27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
    These verses can be broken down into near/far prophesies, just as the prophets of old spoke.

    If some of you have not done so, I would suggest reading post # 4 by Adam. He gives us some valuable understanding of breaking things down and categorizing them when sorting out the near/far formula of verses within the same chapter and dissertation of that prophet, the Lord included. We are meant to search diligently and prayerfully before we are rewarded. Allow the text to speak. Don’t have preconceived ideas in mind before tackling prophesy, because, whoever “they” are, “they say” “if you torture the text long enough, you can get it to say whatever you want it to.” The Spirit will guide you if you don’t resist His truth. Now adays we want to be able to stick someone’s views in various categorical headings. We should resist being tempted to do this. I borrow the truth from this one and that one and let the truth fall where it will. So, let’s look at things afresh and allow the vision to speak for itself–after all, we know that “Christ is the Spirit of Prophesy.”

    He allows us to know that the “season” is near when we see things “begin” to come to pass, but, concerning the absolute, He says:

    Mar 13:32 “No one knows about THAT DAY or HOUR, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
    {The Son gives us more specifics in His Revelation to John concerning the near events of the Destruction of Jerusalem and the end of those things; then, a later event, and a look to the end of those things; another later event and a look to the end of those things; and so forth in that pattern to the end of all things and the end of the curse we are under. God is merciful and though we are tried in our faith, He surely tells us the end of our trials and the reward of the faithful to quiet our fears and tell us to “Be still and know that He is God” that we may receive the reward of our faith.}

    Mar 13:33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.

    Mar 13:34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

    Mar 13:35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.

    {Apparently the Lord knows of the various escatological views being floated about in this era; namely the Pre-trib (“the first watch”) the Mid-trib (“the second watch”) or the Post-trib (when the cock crows), or, at the time the wicked are destroyed forever. So, He sees where we are going with all of this.} 🙂

    Mar 13:36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping.

    Mar 13:37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ”

    Those holding the following verse as “end-time only”, they naturally tie in the verses in Daniel to this abomination, which is correct as the Lord directs us to do this. But, was He speaking of 70 ad, or, as yet future? I’m not convinced about future, except where it concerns the “man of sin” being revealed, as to whether or not there will be a literal temple. To take it at face value, there would have to be a rebuilt temple for the “antichrist” to stand in and declare that he is God. How can a temple be rebuilt overnight? This is impossible to see anytime soon. I’m not saying it can’t happen, or, at least, be in the hearts and minds and workings of the temple faithful as Jay pointed out and as outlined in the videos of “the third temple” on the VOR heading. Could it be such a tabernacle as existed in the time of Moses and even of David, as David had only “pitched a tent” for the Ark of the Covenant. Solomon built the Temple Mount. So, if the Lord will “repare the tent of David”, perhaps it will be as a standing Tabernacle. This is debatable.

    Anyway, we have four accounts of events that expositors of late have divided as only relevant for us today, without seeing the fulfillment of some in 70 ad and some yet future. The prevalent view being that of the Pre-tribulationists, where the Church will be swept up before any hardships or trials or temptations. I don’t see that at all. If “THAT DAY will not come UNTIL the man of sin is revealed, how can we NOT be here to witness the revelation of the man of sin?

    The four views are taken, I believe, from these chapters and books:
    Matthew 13
    Matthew 24
    Mark 13
    Luke 21
    There is much dispute as to exactly which “generation” the Lord was referring to in these verses:

    Mat 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
    Luk 21:32 “I tell you the truth, this generation [fn] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. [fn-or race]
    Mar 13:30 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Modern expositors, or, prognosticators, all put it in the end time generation, yet, in other verses the Lord clearly states what is spoken of will befall those of His near generation. Look at these verses:

    Luk 11:50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,

    Luk 11:51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
    Mat 23:36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

    Lexicon Results
    Strong’s G1074 – genea
    1) fathered, birth, nativity
    2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
    a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
    b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
    1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
    3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
    4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 – 33 years

    And many attribute these verses to a yet prosperous and rebuilt “literal” Babylon:
    Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.’ ”

    Rev 18:21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: “With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.

    Rev 18:22 The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. No workman of any trade will ever be found in you again. The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again.

    Rev 18:23 The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world’s great men. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

    Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth.”
    Yet, if we consider the words spoken of previously in Luke 11:50-51 and Matt. 23:36, we can see that it is more likely earthly Jerusalem which is spoken of. This is echoed, I think, in this verse:
    Rev 11:8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

    Anyone have any thoughts on these? Am I not reading something correctly?

    Wow, this has gotten quite lengthy, so, I’ll pick up the other verses of the Lord describing the Kingom to come “as a man taking a far journey and returning…”

  35. Oh, I think, Jabez, that you are talking about post # 106. Where I am not clear on the two princes spoken of in Daniel, nor, of the timeline in consideration of the feet of brass and mirey clay:

    Dan 9:24 ¶ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    NIV–Dan 9:24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ [fn] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [fn] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. [fn]

    Dan 9:25 “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [fn] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [fn] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

    Dan 9:26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. [fn] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

    Dan 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ [fn] In the middle of the ‘seven’ [fn] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [fn] ” [fn]

    (9:24) Or Most Holy Place; or most holy One
    (9:25) Or word
    (9:25) Or an anointed one; also in verse 26
    (9:26) Or off and will have no one; or off, but not for himself

    (9:27-27) Or ‘week’
    (9:27) Or it
    (9:27) Or And one who causes desolation will come upon the pinnacle of the abominable temple, until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city

  36. I had my understanding of Daniel “confirmed” by Matthew Henry. I was glad to find someone who read the texts as I did. I didn’t accept his exposition, except that it confimed my own. So, just to clarify that.

    Here is a link to read his and see, too, what I understand of it.

    Hope it works this time….

  37. Ok, obviously that didn’t work at all. Maybe they don’t like Blue letter bible site here??

    try this–Henry, Matthew. “Commentary on Daniel 9.” . Blue Letter Bible.

  38. Concerning the antichrist; it seems from Revelation that he is only given 3 and 1/2 years, not seven. If this is the same as some relate to the one making a seven year covenant and then breaking it after 3 and 1/2 years, which they take from Daniel 9.

    Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

  39. Jabez–“When we start with Abraham’s literal promises received in Genesis, as to the descriptors of the boundaries of the Land for his direct decendants, it is impossible to spiritualize this to the rule of the Spirit in the church since Jesus visitation..”

    Let me see if this is how I’m understanding it, and possibly where I’ve gone wrong. The literal remnant who have not worshipped antichrist at Christ’s return and who recognize Him, crying out for Him, will not be changed in an instant when He returns? Is this more correct?

  40. You’ve just now helped me to come to that understanding of how things better fit the literal fulfillment to them!

    Excellent observation, Jabez!

  41. So, maybe, not so fast… How is the language of them “being grafted in” not negated if they are not a part of the Body? I’m still thinking on this….

    But, then, that’s why we’re having this discussion of end time theologies. Wonderful to have this forum; don’t you think?

    Thanks, Dr. Brown! If you occasionally drop in and read this.

  42. I suppose I am a premillennialist, in that I believe the Body of Christ will be gathered to Him at His appearing, yet, I am not a pre-triber. I am a pre-wrather and a literal Millennialist. I have enclosed the words and statements that I take issue with in brackets that look like this: { }. This is so they won’t be confused with anything that may have standards brackets in the text. And I forgot to switch back to the NIV in gathering the verses. Oh well, bear with for a little longer.

    From the Link Tom provided–

    “To summarize, the premillennial view asserts that Christ came to this earth for the purpose of setting up his kingdom. He was, however, {1.surprisingly rejected} by the Jews. Hence, he {2.postponed the kingdom plans} and set up the church {3.instead—as sort of an emergency measure.} When he returns, he {4.allegedly} will raise only the righteous dead, restore national Israel, sit upon David’s literal throne in Jerusalem, and then reign for a span of one thousand years—after which comes the resurrection of the wicked and the judgment.

    “One of the {5.primary fallacies} of the premillennial concept is a {6.materialistic view} of the reign of Christ. This same notion was entertained by the ancient Jews and {7.!!!actually was responsible for their rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah.} The fact is, this {8.mistaken Jewish expectation of a literal, material kingdom} {9.spawned the millennial doctrine} that was taught in the {10.early post-apostolic age.}”

    #7.–This statement is so antisemitic that I am “literally” blown away by it! How can any one even begin to say that the Lord did not know that He would be rejected and crucified, or, that it was the “materialistic view” of the Jews which was “responsible” for His crucifixion!! Where in the world did this idea come from? There is no way you could read Isaiah, Zechariah, Daniel, or, Psalm 22 and hold to this convoluted idea.

    But, I’m getting ahead of myself.

    #1. Again, “surprisingly rejected’? Please. This is nonsense and any lay person who can read would see the fallacy of this statement.

    Mar 9:9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. Mar 9:12 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected? Mar 9:13 But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him.”

    Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
    Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him. Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    Psa 22:6 But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, [saying], Psa 22:8 He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. Psa 22:9 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother’s breasts. Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother’s belly.

    Isa 50:4 The Sovereign LORD has given me an instructed tongue, to know the word that sustains the weary. He wakens me morning by morning, wakens my ear to listen like one being taught. Isa 50:5 The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears, and I have not been rebellious; I have not drawn back. Isa 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting. Isa 50:7 Because the Sovereign LORD helps me, I will not be disgraced. Therefore have I set my face like flint, and I know I will not be put to shame. {Luk 9:51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem,} Isa 50:8 He who vindicates me is near. Who then will bring charges against me? Let us face each other! Who is my accuser? Let him confront me! Isa 50:9 It is the Sovereign LORD who helps me. Who is he that will condemn me? They will all wear out like a garment; the moths will eat them up. Isa 50:10 Who among you fears the LORD and obeys the word of his servant? Let him who walks in the dark, who has no light, trust in the name of the LORD and rely on his God. Isa 50:11 But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment.
    Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
    Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, [and] his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, [and] the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
    Isa 52:13 See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. Isa 52:14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him— his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness—
    Isa 52:15 so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.
    Zec 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
    Luk 23:11 And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked [him], and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.
    Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    So, I think that’s proof enough to show the absurdity of that statement. And you can see that being a premillennialist does not necessarily cloak you as holding the same view as those who write famous books and preach nonsense.
    I’ll have to pick up the other statements of dispute later.

  43. Re: the “surprisingly rejected” – I agree with you 100% that this is absurd and in no way a surprise so our Lord.

    I’ve read most of the posts up to this point, but I must confess I’m having trouble following the various lines of reasoning.

    Help me out here by answering these questions from your understanding:
    1) Will there be a “rapture” of the saints or not? When will this take place? Who will be left on the earth at that time?

    Where is this written?

    2) Are the anti-Christ and the man of lawlessness the same? Is there one anti-Christ or many? When will he/they have his/their time on the stage?

    Where is this written?

    3) The saints reigning with Christ, who are they? When will this take place? From whence do they reign, and over whom?

    Where is this written?

    4) The promises to the Jews that “must be fulfilled”, as you keep insisting – what are they, exactly?

    Where is this written?

    I’m still uber-busy at work, and I think I’m coming down with the flu to boot (there goes my deadline), so it will be a little longer before I can fully engage again. The answers to these questions to clarify should help me understand your positions at that time.

    Take care,
    Tom

  44. Sure, Tom, I’ll get the verses that answer to my understanding of those things together for you. I suppose I borrow from this and that according to what I believe the scripture says to those things. I guess I don’t fit in any particular category.

    I hope you get to feeling better soon!

  45. Tom, I’ve taken only question #1) this time around. In order to give an answer as to how I see things, you’ll have to wade through the Scriptures that I understand as speaking to your questions.

    “1) Will there be a “rapture” of the saints or not? When will this take place? Who will be left on the earth at that time?”

    “Where is this written?”

    We know the Lord, in His own words, told the Israelites and by extension, us, that they would not see Him again until the time that they should say, “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the LORD”. So, if they are not going to see Him, neither are we, as He’s only coming back once! Mat 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'” Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'” We know, too, that the Lord will come as thief in the night and that no one knows the day or the hour of His appearing. So, we are admonished to stay always ready and have our lamps trimmed and with oil to sustain them. And we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and to take the Gospel to the Jews as we do the rest of the world. We are to found busy doing the Lord’s work until He appears.

    There is a better outline in other scriptures and in the Revelation concerning an approximation of events preceding His return, but, that would take more than I think you want to look into right now. The best answer I can give is, He’s not coming back until the fulness of the Gentiles has been redeemed and the remnant of the Jews have invited Him back.

    The idea of the rapture is certainly Biblical although it’s called in Greek the harpozo, (G726) the “catching away” of the saints, and it is outlined in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians and in 1 Corinthians. It’s spoken of elsewhere in the NT, but, I felt I’d better keep it brief for now. It’s already gotten rather lengthy.

    G726
    1) to seize, carry off by force
    2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
    3) to snatch out or away

    Here are the verses that speak to it. I’ll include the Greek Lexicon definitions for key words. There are many who seem to want us to believe that it is only used concerning the rapture of the Church, but, it is used 19 times in 14 different verses. We are only going to look at the catching away of the Church, or, the rapture, and the verses speaking to the coming of the Lord.

    2Th 2:1 Concerning the coming (G3952) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (G1997) to him, we ask you, brothers,
    2Th 2:2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
    2Th 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness [fn] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. {This ties into your second question about the man of sin and/or of lawlessness. Yes they are the same and he is described in the next verse. However the “spirit of antichrist” is represented in all those who are in opposition to Christ. More on that in a later post in answer to question #2.}

    2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
    2Th 2:5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

    2Th 2:1 “gathering together” Lexicon Results
    Strong’s G1997 – episynagōgē

    1) a gathering together in one place
    2) the (religious) assembly (of Christians)

    I’m thinking that Paul had outlined this for them in 1Th 4. He also relates this “mystery” to the Corinthians.

    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (G3952) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    “coming of the Lord” Lexicon Results

    Strong’s G3952 – parousia
    1) presence
    2) the coming, arrival, advent
    a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

    In 2a), I don’t see how you can read the last judgment into the verses that use “parousia” unless you have that particular escatological view in mind when reading the verses. It doesn’t of itself state that view. And in this verse there is nothing said of the wicked dead being raised at Christ’s coming, so, I don’t see the final judgment in it. (2Peter, perhaps in not reading it right–here, no.) 1Cr 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Nothing about “all” being raised or judged at this time. By the word of the Lord in Revelation, we are of the “first resurrection”. But, we’ll not get into that now.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (G109): and so shall we forever be with the Lord.

    Lexicon Results
    Strong’s G109 – aēr
    1) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air
    2) the atmospheric region

    1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    We who are “in Christ” rest in Him in death. Another way of saying it was as Paul related it “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” (2Cr 5:8)
    We also see in 1 Th 4:14 that we who have passed on from this life will be “brought with Him” when He appears. There is no way to “bring us with Him” unless we are “already with Him.” I’ll elaborate in another post on the Lord’s word in His Revelation to include a further understanding of “those who die in Christ” as being separated by Him and “that where He is, we are also.” Jhn 14:3

    At present, we have been given “an earnest (a deposit) of the Spirit”. 2Cr 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. 2Cr 5:5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

    When He appears, we “will be like Him and will see Him as He is.” We will be in His likeness in an instant. Clothed in our new bodies which He promised to us. What we received as a partial pledge will be fully realized upon His return.

    1Cr 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
    1Cr 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Cr 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
    1Cr 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

    Now, the Pre-tribbers use the verses in 2Th. as proof that this will be before the tribulation, but, I don’t see from comparing this particular verse with 1Cr 15:52 and with the book of the Revelation given to us by the Word of the Lord, as necessarily saying any more than it does. In fact, Paul clearly says the “last” trump. We are now speaking of those who are still alive when He appears. It says we who are of the Body of Christ and are still alive when He appears will be gathered together* with those who have already passed on. Paul says, “to meet the Lord in the air”. It doesn’t say He comes to earth and then we are gathered, neither does it say we are gathered and taken to Heaven. It says we are gathered to Him when He is in our “atmosphere” and then, it would seem from other scriptures, that we immediately proceed with Him to touchdown on this earth. According to Scripture, He will touch down in the same place of His ascension; the Mount of Olives. And it seems from other scripture, including this chapter in Zec., that His saints will be with Him. Zec 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. Luk 24:50 Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. Luk 24:51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, Act 1:11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” Act 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away.

    I would say this is the beginning of the Millennium. The beginning of Christ’s reign and of our reigning with Him. I’ve not included the verses concerning our reigning with Him. It’s pretty weighty with scripture already. But, I can if you are uncertain of them.

    1Cr 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. {Again, nothing about all the dead.}
    1Cr 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
    1Cr 15:25 *!! For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. !!
    1Cr 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
    1Cr 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
    1Cr 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. {John relates the same as verses 24-28 in Revelation.}

    Concerning your question of “who will be left on the earth” at the appearing of the Lord (?) we can look to the book of Zec., chapter 14 for one of the best outlines. It seems that there will be some who survive when the Lord fights against the nations who come against Jerusalem (vs.16) as we are told they will even come up from year to year to worship the King. This is how it reads in the ESV:

    Zec 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
    Zec 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    Zec 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
    Zec 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
    Zec 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
    Zec 14:6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. [fn]
    Zec 14:7 And there shall be a unique [fn] day, which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.
    Zec 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea [fn] and half of them to the western sea. [fn] It shall continue in summer as in winter.
    Zec 14:9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
    Zec 14:10 The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
    Zec 14:11 And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction. [fn] Jerusalem shall dwell in security.
    Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
    Zec 14:13 And on that day a great panic from the LORD shall fall on them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other.
    Zec 14:14 Even Judah will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance.
    Zec 14:15 And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the donkeys, and whatever beasts may be in those camps.
    Zec 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
    Zec 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
    Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; [fn] there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
    Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
    Zec 14:20 And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “Holy to the LORD.” And the pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the bowls before the altar.
    Zec 14:21 And every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader [fn] in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.
    ESV Footnotes:
    (14:6) Compare Septuagint, Syriac, Vulgate, Targum; the meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain
    (14:7) Hebrew one
    (14:8) That is, the Dead Sea
    (14:8) That is, the Mediterranean Sea
    (14:11) The Hebrew term rendered decree of utter destruction refers to things devoted (or set apart) to the Lord (or by the Lord) for destruction
    (14:18) Hebrew lacks rain
    (14:21) Or Canaanite

    Tom, I hope you have a better understanding of my position in answer to your first question. I’ve included where those things are written in Scripture and the way that I interpret them. I hope that I was clear enough without being tedious. It’s difficult to decide what to leave out for the sake of brevity. And if you still have questions, I’ll elaborate where I need to.

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