Also, Tom, have you read “Our Hands and Stained with Blood,” by Michael L. (Dr.) Brown? There is ground covered therein and thereby as to your drift so far here. Basic definitions of replacement theology, who is Israel, etc. are expounded well therein. RSVP.
Tom, the four phrased statements, do they naturally raise any questions as to what they may be stating being the case?
Tom, the four phrased statements, do they naturally raise any questions as to what they may be stating being the case? We have to have some common foundation, for example as to what is the “Gospel”, to then discuss other matters. You might look up the Commonwealth of Israel, and the Israel of God to view some historical divisions, and common understandings from both Testaments. What will those broken off branches be regrafted into in Rom 9-11, for example. Who are referred to as Gentiles in that passage, and who is Israel in it, and in the final statement on such in Galations. We may explore some other understandings prior to addressing amillennialism, and its lack.
I have not, but it’s beginning to look like this conversation is setting up to be a bigger drain of my time than I’m willing to allow. Like I previously said, my focus is on Jesus, on the cross, 2000 years ago, not speculation about the future.
That said, while I’m happy to answer questions on my views (if phrased in a clear, understandable, well-defined way), I’m not willing to do extra-curricular study on the subject at this point in time.
Without finding Dr. Brown’s assertion, I can only give my understanding of who Israel is, was, and always will be.
I don’t see any indication of a “spiritual” Israel as some express it. I believe Israel means the literal nation of the people know as Israel.
There is one indication of debate in the verse, Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. KJV
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. NIV
In the Greek Lexicon it is defined as follows: Israel = “he shall be a prince of God” 1) the name given to the patriarch Jacob (and borne by him in addition to his former name) 2) the family or descendants of Israel, the nation of Israel 3) Christians, the Israel of God (Gal 6:16), for not all those who draw their bodily descent from Israel are true Israelites, i.e. are those whom God pronounces to be Israelites and has chosen to salvation.
To me, this means that only those in Christ will be accounted a “Prince with God”, in the verse of Galatians.
I don’t have Dr. Brown’s book either, and can’t afford to get it any time soon.
Tom, It is a simple foundation, which is based on scripture’s definitions and concepts, as to coming from either perspective toward understanding what Daniel and Paul called “the time of the end,” last days, or end times (depending on translation primarily). I guess I misunderstood you in the past as to wanting to find a definition of Israel, and, on the earlier forum, as to being open to change, where so.
Jesus stated that the bridegroom would appear suddenly, that we should prepare (light and trim) our lamps, and wait always. In Mt. 24-25 his perspective seemed to be to indeed answer the questions which were put to him by sincere disciples. I think of you as a reader and surveyor of truth, so was unaware that issues of control of its gatekeeping may have been stirred up somehow.
Sheila, The scripture does not change from Old to New as to who is Israel, or the Israel of God among Israel. Otherwise we would be confused. In Ephesians Paul speaks of both, and these being formed together into “one new man”. Paul had many ways of promoting his understanding of the love of God shed abroad in our hearts. It seems that what Paul is summarizing in Galations, about the Israel of God is the very people group he earlier refers to in the letter. Scripture is not broken; it does not change its primary references. It is remarkably consistent. The love of God established in Jesus Christ holds together all reality, temporary and not so, and will eclispe these end times with His Return. The doctrine of Restoration is vital to understanding how the Old and New merge, where so, when, and why.
third line should read, Paul speaks of both Jew and Gentile, and these being formed into one new man, etc.
There is an adequate discussion defining Israel posted by Dr. Brown in this website portal as well.
So, in the lexicon definition we should not understand the 3rd reference as it reads: “3) Christians, the Israel of God (Gal 6:16),” but, as refering to only those of Israel who accepted Messiah?
I’ll have to pick it up later when my mind is refreshed.
Jabez,
Pulling forward your post from the other section we have:
[1]It is important to have a theology of eschatology which fits with the Lord’s outline and concerns raised in Mt. 24-25, [2]Peter’s speech to the Nation in early Acts, [3]Daniel’s prophetic timeline, and [4]the restoration and renewal statements in the New and Old Testaments.
I agree.
As for the different understandings of the nation of Israel, I am aware of the different approaches taken. It is for this reason I have asked to have those of you engaging to provide your own understanding to promote understanding.
In my understanding, the “Israel” in Rom 11.26 is to be understood as the elect from both the Jews and Gentiles cumulatively.
Wow, rereading that last post I think my mind needs refreshing too. I could have stated all of that more fluidly.
Jabez,
I think of you as a reader and surveyor of truth, so was unaware that issues of control of its gatekeeping may have been stirred up somehow.
Haha, I’m not sure whether to be offended of flattered. I’m not sure what you mean here, could you rephrase?
Jabez,
I appreciate that you think defining Israel should be a simple task, but as Sheila’s lexicon citation demonstrates, it is not. If you would lay out for us in clear terms exactly what you understand Israel to be (which shouldn’t be difficult since it appears you believe in 1 single definition alone) instead of redirecting us to books we don’t own or posting areas we will have to search out (as opposed to providing the link for us) I really think this would be preferable.
Thanks, Tom
Daniel, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John all have references to “these last days” (see II Tim 3). It is a season, in the Age of the Gentiles [Daniel’s reference], where we are challenged to be efficient in our illumination of lamps lit and trimmed for expectancy of the sudden announcement of the Return–as is couched in the fulfillments of the Prophets of Old in Israel (per Acts 3:21, while considering who the Apostle is speaking to).
Perilous tunes have come, and will continue until the Return. Apostacy and pleasure seeking in the place of discipleship with Jesus as our teacher are scattered throughout the present culture of this nation and the Nations. Peter, in his second letter, cites the source of apostasy and its false assumptions to those among us, not of us (like with John), and their ways, error, motivations, and liberalism. Redemption truth, redemption plans then are of Jesus alone–who carries these, as predicted, by his Promises given through the Prophets of Old, and the Plan for Israel, the Church, and the Nations.
There is denial: of the person of our Lord, the Way of our Lord, the values and heart of our Lord. There is substitutionary motivation in place of redemptive intention. The incarnation is substituted for a limited and limiting “historical Jesus”. Petty Tyrants assert their insistence along with the characteristics of liberalism among those easily preyed upon by these false teachers lusts for power, laciviousness, and greed. Focus for the Kingdom is dissipated a thousand ways, not to mention robbed by the cares of the world, and verdict of this life.
We are challenged, in a most timely and expectant way, to regard Jesus as redeemer, always. Whether it be of the stuff of a poor childhood, human love betrayed, dashed egos, economic turnarounds, bodily failure, and emotional losses and disappointments–what this marketplace world has promised it cannot truly deliver. Even if we had it all, we would age, and die, and cannot transport whatever was supposed gain into the next life.
Paul stated, based on the model of knowing and walking with his Lord, that, “the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love”. In this Kingdom tendency we find meaning, outworking of faith, future and past hope, and a love that is consistently present in the face of apostacy and distrust.
Our understanding of what Jesus has done is vital to comprehending what He will do, has planned, and promises in the very last days of the Age of the Gentiles. Jesus spoke of that Age as passing (Luke 21:24), of the generation that sees Jerusalem and Israel restored seeing the Return. We must prepare our hearts, minds, and vessels for a cooperative, unified, and nonshadowy clear alliance with faith in the Promises given us of Christ.
#64, Tom, one backs away from what one was moving toward when personal emotional meaning of phrases like what “Amillennialsim lacks” trigger such inner person responses. Come on, brother, you now want to be spoon fed when what your mind of Christ trust tendency has already led you from glory to glory, source to source for truth, and a trusting heart toward Jesus? We have not seen anything yet as this Age comes to the end Jesus spoke about. Your (and my) lamp needs both lighting, and trimming–constant attention and abiding–find the source on Israel in this present site, read it, then get back with me (and Sheila, Ruth, Ben KC, Dave, etc.).
#60, Sheila. Your dictionary or reference book is correct in mentioning these person regardful variant meanings as emerged as human understanding as compreheneded as such over time. What is important to understanding Scriptural reference is to inquire what is the Redeemer’s own meaning and definition? Recall that the Church mistakenly thought for the most part, up until the restoration of Israel, that it was the true “Israel of God,” due to assumptive default. Then Israel began to regather.
And a careful reading of Romans 9-11 says something different entirely than the church=the Israel of God. When I was a Presbyterian I was taught that the church replaced Israel;then,when disillusioned with its political Ekklesia, and divorce advocacies, rather than grounding its redemptive Ekklesia I was challenged to discover otherwise. I spent some years mulling it over, before coming to understand that not all “of Israel” are “Israel” [or are “the Israel of God”]. It is seated in dispensationalism, the notion that the church replaced Israel and is the Israel of God. Take the blessings, natural Israel gets the curses was the belief. It is true that natural Israel [Judah and Ephriam] was separated from that Promised, but for a season for good reason.
It is no accident that the book “Our Hands are Stained with Blood” was written when it was, as it was, and clarifying what it did. This confirmed what I came to understand over many years, as just read a few years ago. If you own a few books as essential ones, own this one, for it was revealed to a redeemed Eagle Saint of Israel, who can claim no other continuous pedigree than that of the Redemptive Actions of God on his life, days, and comprehension: given for our instruction.
There is a chapter on who is Israel, largely reproduced as researched by Dr. Brown on this site. Site search it. In these last days we are challenged to light our lamps, trim them, abide in Christ, and be perpared for the announcement of our wedding feast. Do you think it wise to read the guest list, know the names of the attendees, and the particulars and invited pricipals involved? Check http://www.bookfinder.com. You can afford this book as a used copy.
“The Israel of God,” of late Galations, is referenced in Paul’s ways of building on his insights, in earlier Galations, in Ephesians, in Romans, etc.
The Commonwealth of Israel is the Tenach reference for comprehension, then realizing that all the Prophets proclaim righteous obedient living as needful of being the faithful, elected and chosen “Israel of God,” in addition to meeting the literal particulars.
If the Welch, English, Scots, Irish, etc. could meld into a “United Kingdom”, how did it become so–yet while retaining their particular ethnic identities through it all? No true Scot of Irishman would calim to be an Englishman.
What does Paul mean in Romans 9-11 when he says, “not all who are [named, or, are of] Israel are Israel?” Read in in the total context of the passage, the breaking off [from what?] and the regrafting in, and, finally the inclusion for salvation. Recall Jesus said too, “they will not see me again until they say, blessed is he who comes [present tense] in the Name of the Lord”.
This is not a casual subject for our edified intellectual comprehension, it is vital information for our working with the redemptive Plan of God for these last days, and final events, or these end times. We will increasingly need one another’s support and mutual edifying scriptural insight to walk the walk, do the talk, and light the lamps of loving as He loved.
Jabez,
#64, Tom, one backs away from what one was moving toward when personal emotional meaning of phrases like what “Amillennialsim lacks” trigger such inner person responses.
I think you’ve misread me. If you are referring to my reaction to your post #53 and your comment about what amil lacks, I was not responding out of emotion or taking anything personally at all. In fact, I fully accept that amil views may not account for all things, and put no personal stake in it whatsoever – thus it would be extremely difficult for me to “take personally” any comment on its shortcomings.
I bear no malice whatsoever to any who would question my eschatological views, and all may rest assured I will not become defensive re: the subject as I have little if anything invested in it. (that would be as opposed to the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, and Christian freedom from the Mosaic law ie the Gospel of Grace – all of which I take very seriously)
Come on, brother, you now want to be spoon fed when what your mind of Christ trust tendency has already led you from glory to glory, source to source for truth, and a trusting heart toward Jesus?
Again, I have nothing invested in a discussion of eschatology, so if I am asking to be “spoon fed” it is because I can think of better uses of my time than chasing these things down. I am here solely out of my deep respect for yourself and Sheila and your apparent concerns re: my views. If you have points to make or questions to ask, do so, and I will do my able best to interact faithfully, but I am not going to make a quest out of seeking definitions that could just as easily be posted on this section of the board, or at least linked from here.
Your (and my) lamp needs both lighting, and trimming–constant attention and abiding–find the source on Israel in this present site, read it, then get back with me (and Sheila, Ruth, Ben KC, Dave, etc.).
I agree the lamps need lighting; how I have chosen to use my oil is in studying the Trinity, Deity of Christ, and the Theology of the Cross – not in eschatology.
I will not seek out the source on Israel on the present site – if there weren’t so much to wade through I would, but the sheer amount of material makes it time consuming. If you would like to provide me the link I would be more than happy to review it, but I already did my heavy-lifting in just finding this “Sorting out end-time theologies” section of the boards for us to have this conversation on.
Again, I’m here because of respect for your concern, but asking me to do these things is like shouting from shore to a drowning man saying “I think you’re in a bad way – maybe you should swim to land!” I appreciate the concern and I respect you, but there comes a time when – if you believe someone is in danger (as it would seem you think of me) – one must humble themselves enough to get a little wet and not accuse the drowning of wanting to be “spoon fed”.
-Tom
Tom, You past stated a need to move over here to this forum. You took the time and did the work. I would suggest seeing my Oct 6th comment to Chuck on the Oct 5th Praying for the Peace of Jerusalem blog.
Further, I do not have other words coming for mentioning the esssential nature of having an eschatology along with a Christology. A Christology does not develop an adequate understanding of the Church, the Nature of man, and many other developed doctrines of the canon.
Eschatotogy has some themes which are obvious and researched for present relevance, not simply speculative impressions, opinions, or details. As written, there must be some speculative assertion of what God is now doing as to his own covenant promises, and Plans for Redemption, as fit with the four statements already made to which you agreed.
So, where do we go from here. Your bonds may be more important to edification by this present exploration than your mentioned boundaries. Moving away from something when you have past exhibited endless patience with those asserting the law of Moses is the only conclusion which remains regarding statements on time and patience.
It is incongruous to assert such a posture when not in the past, asserting such over less grevous matters. If our Father will “bless those who bless thee” this must extend into our present regardful discussions.
Why eschatology? Like Christology, it is of Jesus, of his identity, purpose, Lordship [Kingdom} and regard. It has to do with His intentions and Plans as the Redemptive Lord: not just in the future, for all people when finishing out promises and intentions also not found of this present “Age of the Gentiles” inadequate attempts at self and world government, as to failing its own actualization of nonabiding ideology, and Jesus’ future promised establishments of restoration regarding Israel, righteousness, and an augmented presence from Jerusalem for a totally rearranged world (per Daniel and others, who engage tracing out the consequences of human history with and without Christ, where Jerusalem is intended to become a “praise in the earth”).
That resulting new conditions of human living are established from Jerusalem with Christ present there is plain enough in the great body of eschatological scripture; for a future period of world government influence as is foreshadowed by the present Christian spiritual Kingdom affiliation for when the “kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdom of God and his Christ”.
Daniel, Zech., Isaiah, and the Revelation all allude to such a time not yet seen on the earth being about a future Messianic hope given to David and Moses as a promise for their chosen Nation, by covenants promises as such.
What is it that ensures that the often strangely associated words of the Prophets of Old with Israel and Jerusalem regarding David and Moses’ Promised One’s restorative establishments are so important that Jesus spent time remarking on these realities over Jerusalem, as to its devotional Center’s then coming desolation, and His family of origin’s distant future refounded there again in Him–all as is stated before His Passion and resurrection? Why bother if a once accomplished finished work grants a relationship of faith in Him within human history was to be soon established once and for all time, and for the eternal consequence of many, and if so at the expense of then present Jerusalem’s religious system and/or political preoccupations?
Why was His final historical “discourse” one which, like his teachings on discipleship, would linger on in conscience throughout humankind’s life cycles for thousands of years, and what does this have to do with a sometimes mentioned Millennial time period’s establishments, and its suppositions, or lack of substance for such, if so?
Tom agreed in #62 to four important future realities or themes being carried from the Bible into the present and future, where so. After Pentecost, hearing the commotion, the Nation asked for an explanation. What is happening here, what does it mean, why the commotion? What the close Apostles understood of their accepted Messiah rejected by the Sanhedrin is that the Nation missed the visitation and Resurrected and Ascended Jesus who had an obligation to yet complete significant promises given by their Tenach Prophets [as are founded in most of them anyway, especially as to a future timeline for His Kingdom, as is Promised Israel in Daniel, Ezkl., Isaiah and Zech.] as to David’s and Moses’ statements about Him coming into Israel, being its consolation, restoring the promised Kingdom eternally as set on the throne of David with its Temple dedicated to Israel and the Nations healing [in sum, Acts 3:21].
These statements were understood as spoken by his disciples, being Jews, and are mentioned to and of Jesus by them: in Mt. 24:3, later in Acts 1:6, just as he was leaving the earth, and in 3:21 as to Peter’s explanation after the commotion of the Holy Spirit’s coming perplexed the gathering Temple crowds [see also 2:38 & 39]; as seen as mindful of his closest followers in the very questions they took on regarding their Nation and its past received Davidic Kingdom etermal establishment promises as were put to Jesus just before the Mt. of Olives discourse made over Jerusalem, and as found contemplated too in some other places by Paul (2 Thsl. 2), John (primarily in the Revelation), and in Peter (as to the coming Day of the Lord which both judges and completes the results of ignoring or regarding the Word of God of the Messiah).
The Revelation to John, chapter 20 is a further contribution to Messianic expectation restoration ideals which Tom has called “figurative” as to its interpretation. This contains the passage along with Ezekiel’s, Isaiah’s, Daniel’s and Zechariah’s predictions which have granted literal substance to the expectations of a restored Kingdom of David’s throne in the Land of the People of the Book. There is activity there now, involving millions of dollars worth of resources, and thousands of dedicated Jewish hours of labor and preparation for a renewed Temple national religious center, as accompanied with a renewed Messianic expectancy.
If God promised it, Old instruction believers hold, He must do it to be faithful to his own integrity–if God exists. The proof of reengaging a national dedication to atonement, feasts, and observances does request of God that He reengage the nation (Mt. 13:52).
Will there be a “Millennial reign”, per Daniel’s, Isaiah’s, and Zechariah’s predictions of the promised Messiah Ben David, and, if so, will the Return take place before or after that period is in focus for our related discussions here? The view of Amillennialism is that there will be no such earthly reign of the Messiah. The view of Premillennialism is that this is the Promise for Israel’s restoration which the disciples were keenly aware of, asked Jesus about, continued to expect, and that all of their Tenach (Old Testament) Prophecy authors of Old predicted and promised such a reign in order for God to be faithful to past covenant promises He had made to his Nation and family of origin. since the restoration of the Nation of the Land of the People of the Book, as promised as to making the nation “in a day”, and as to the many years Bible scholars have stated that this is a miraculous fulfillment of the beginning of restorative promises in the Prophets of Old how can an earthly reign of the Christ be of God’s own Word?
This then was an unveiled mystery remaining as stated of the visitation, first completed spiritually by Jesus from Jerusalem when he first came to earth, by the Holy Spirit sent as promised, of the establishment of faith in the Nation and Nations, and so through the three year ministry of Jesus sent to the Nation–such was further expanded by the Mystery Spiritual Kingdom going into the Nations. Yet we still have the facts of the disciples’ expectations, God’s promises for completion spoken by the Prophets, and Jesus responses to these being declared not of their then completion, but of their future establishments, hope and judgment.
He would return, as he left, and as Zechariah stated he would, by epipheneia, parousia, glory and splendor in the clouds. His feet would land on the Mount of Olives to carry out the specifics of a literal kingdom promised Israel, after the long period of completion of the full number of Gentiles into his fold. Daniel, Ezkl., Jeremiah, Amos, Micah, Haggi, Zech., Isaiah, etc. all had elements of such a hope’s literal promises not completed by Jesus spiritual establishments due to his first visit.
The disciples questions, answers received, and statements made to the chosen Nation after three years with Him remained for us to read about restoration of the Kingdom to Israel, the Return, and the fulfillment of Prophetic Promises spoken by the Prophets of Old. So, why the anticipated New Testament disciples expectation of “restoration or renewal?” What did it mean then and now later as to Jesus’ given answers, and why do we care if simply being saved, adopted, and set free to newness of life in the present is the primary experience for a changed and meaningful life? Simply put, because God is an allpowerful and allknowing person of his Word, or he is not God.
I asked Tom how he regarded John’s Revelation of Jesus Christ, chapter 20. He stated that it was viewed as figurative, so, this scripture is the source where the term Millennium appears as is most often correlated in eschatology with restoration promises of the Tenach given to Israel. Vs. 4 mentions thrones….[and] reigned. I Cor 6:2-4 associates this with deligated rule for non eternal judgment. There is a shared rule, which aligns with Isaiah’s Messianic hopes and specifics, over time. Believers martyred by the Beast of 13:7 & 15 are pictured as well in this mention. 20:5 “did not live again” seems to not indicate that the resurrection of the dead stated in the passage did not include all people of all time, and hence, can be associated with Dan. 12:2, and John 5:29. As with I Cor 15: 23 & 52 there is a first resurrection of dead (before a thousand years of Christ’s reign), which completes promises made to Israel in the Prophets of Old restoration passages over which his disciples held long term questions and answers given in their racial and chosen nation hearts.
There is later in the passage a final resurrection after the 1000 year’s is finished (vv. 11-13). 20:6 looks forward to a life with the Messiah after v. 5’s first resurrection. This resurrection is given for believers, not unbelievers, unto purpose for service and life, not coming eternal judgment. There is mention too of the second death of torment finally for unbelievers by extension of the passage past the mentioned time. Other events are the binding of the satan for the time period, later to be released to deceive the nations once more, as throughout past world Gentile Age history. The nations regather to oppose Christ and Israel once more, as in so the past prior to the mentioned “first resurrection” (16: 13, 14; 19:19, 20). 20:10 then involves a final rebellion addressed by God (vv 8, 9), after which the satan, being God’s enemy, is forever judged with the beast and the false prophet (of the Revelation, of earth, of 19:20). This is consistent with Is. 66:22-24, and Gospel reference Mk. 9:48).
In listening to Tom’s blanket interpretation in part, I would agree that 20:11’a language is literarily descriptive and figurative, but so to state a literal action in time (see also 2 Pet. 3:10-13). This then is not speculative in content but quite literal in action and result. Then we have the final judgment of the dead who are raised. Now both believers and unbelivers stand before the “Great White” throne,v. 12, unlike those raised in vs. 5 to conduct the rule of governmental reign’s temporal and orderly on the planet judgement.
To rule with Christ, Revl. 1:6; 2:26, 27; and 5:10 can be said to associate with the first resurrection, as can martyrdom and Christ’s subsequent appointments for the time period of fulfilling the Kingdom promises past made to Israel. Why a Millennium at all? What’s the point after the finished work of the Cross? We go back to the Prophets and Promises of Old to Israel, Judah and Ephriam, about establishments in earth’s Jerusalem for such details bringing righteousness over all the earth. Consider that in our lives we have not known this externally, but inwardly. Whereas the Revelation is covering a long period of time with the framed supernatural details of a time period for completing the promises of Old precluding and coming after this allusion.
So, when we see “all these things taking place,” as was spoken on the Mt. of Olives over Jerusalem, in this present “evil age” what are disciples living at that time supposed to do? Certainly this was long after the openers of the questions given by mentioned disciples lifetimes passed, and long after the Messiah of Daniel’s timeline was “cut off”, then resurrected and ascended with the promise to Return. These may be speculative or figurative passages when connected to the early Revelation 20 verses in one sense, but are literally stated in other Biblical passages and in that passage as well in specific information extended along into our time and season on the earth. Today we have weapons of mass destruction, a culture of death in a religion of a false prophet widely followed, and foreboding environmental concerns. In the discourse on the Mount of Olives we have Jesus dark negative predictions, and the promise of his Return as the light at the end of a tunnel.
So, I would then ask Tom, why would the present renewal of Israel be linked to promises made of David and Moses regarding the People of the Book in the Land? If Revl. 20:4-6 is involved in these incomplete promises, how is this first resurrection a positive development, as tying into Romans 11s promise of regrafting in for “all Israel”, and Jesus mention of a reestablished Jerusalem, as a national center, for the statement of the nation as to the blessing of the Return, and as to Israel’s salvation (in other passages after the full number of Gentiles come in).
Why are a first and second resurrection of the dead around a time period of rule and reign of thrones literally and not symbolically given of two separately identified groups? The identical term for a physical resurrection, ezesan, appears in both the first and second reference, as such most literal and not figurative, where the first is established as precedent for the second.
Jesus taught about the present apostacy of our faith, and its challenges before his return begging for his promised time of restoration to Israel to come as by Zechariah’s descriptors of literal circumstances for a righteous Kingdom promised rule, through supernatural intervention in history, regarding an Israel that would not exist for almost two thousand years. We see through a glass partially indeed, but what is promised indeed as to the Messiah Ben David for Israel after its present regathering? And what is promised the whole people of God prior to the Great white throne of judgment? How are these times unique, and what is expected of us in regard to our faith, and Israel as to the Plan Jesus ushered in for Redemption, the fulfillment of all righteousness, and the Promise and hope of the Return? The nature of the visitation and Passion, and the nature of the Return are to carry out the promises made to those who lived by faith in times past and present.
In my above developed thought, the eighth paragraph up from the bottom, just after half way, should read….
Believers martyred by the Beast of 13:7 & 15 are pictured as well in this mention. 20:5 “did not live again” seems to indicate that the resurrection of the dead stated in the passage did not include all people of all time, and hence, can be associated with Dan. 12:2, and John 5:29 as being about a particular people set in time.
Instead it erroneously stated:
“Believers martyred by the Beast of 13:7 & 15 are pictured as well in this mention. 20:5 ‘did not live again’ seems to not indicate that the resurrection of the dead stated in the passage did not include all people of all time, and hence, can be associated with Dan. 12:2, and John 5:29′, when the opposite meaning was intended.
Me, being the one who suggested leaving out lengthy Bible verses, has been forced to include them as necessary for you to follow my end time views more specifically.
post #68
Jabez–“What is important to understanding Scriptural reference is to inquire what is the Redeemer’s own meaning and definition? Recall that the Church mistakenly thought for the most part, up until the restoration of Israel, that it was the true “Israel of God,” due to assumptive default. Then Israel began to regather.” Also–“And a careful reading of Romans 9-11 says something different entirely than the church=the Israel of God.”
Not ever holding the above stated view, and probably because I didn’t learn any of those from others, I never mistook the Church for replacing Israel. So, that point is decided.
Concerning Romans and Israel, I read it like this: 1.) Esau was birthed at the same time, actually before, Jacob (Israel), yet is not considered the decendent of the “promise” as is Jacob. So, “not all who are of Israel, are “of” the promise. 2.) Not “many” who were later of Israel, i.e., in Messiah’s first advent, accepted the “promised seed of the woman” as Savior and Redeemer, so, too, they are not “of Israel”, having rejected Him. 3.) That they were then, deliberately, though, only for a time, “blinded” in part until “the fulness of the Gentiles has come in”, I absolutely agree. That’s my understanding of it.
I’ll say this, up front, I don’t adhere to a “parenthetical division” of the 70 weeks of Daniel. I do accept the “times of the Gentiles” as having been in process for over 2000 years now. That there will come a time when the Lord says, “times up”, I agree with. That the time is at hand is demonstrated by His own words and those given to the OT prophets.
Israel being gathered as a nation once more is the fulfillment of many prophesies as outlined in the OT, of which the book of Revelation is saturated with. The letters pronounced and stated as given to the seven churches in Asia were for those of that time period, not for the Church throughout all ages. (While the message is, of course, still pertinent) I believe it follows the mercy of the Lord in warning the believers of the destruction to come on Jerusalem in 70ad, and that they were to head His warning as “soon to come to pass”.
Most say, the NT was written after the destruction of Jerusalem. I think otherwise. There is not even a hint of it anywhere in the NT scriptures that it was already destroyed. John leads up to that in the Revelation given to the Lord and passed to him to quickly get the word out. Judgement was coming and “soon”. I think it answers to these words spoken by the Lord.
Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against [their] parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Luk 21:6 [As for] these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass? {The Apostles are asking about the destruction of the beautiful stones being thrown down.}
Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. {There were no claims in Israel of a Messiah until “after” His advent}
Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things MUST FIRST come to pass; but THE END [is] not by and by.
The Apostles were still confused, thinking the destruction of Jerusalem was the end of the age as spoken of by the prophets, the Lord corrects them by differentiating between the two. He will later put off their idea of having the Kingdom restored to Israel at “THIS TIME”.
Then, the following verses outline THOSE DAYS. Yet future.
Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Then back to their “immediate” concerns:
Luk 21:12 BUT, BEFORE ALL THESE, {the true signs of the end of days. as outlined in 10-11} they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle [it] therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name’s sake.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls. {The warnings as given by the mercy of the Lord to John in Revelation}
The Lord then elaborates on the things which they should focus on as their immediate concerns:
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, AND SHALL BE LED AWAY CAPTIVE INTO ALL NATIONS: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the TIMES OF THE GENTILES SHALL BE FULFILLED.
I see no other way to read it, other than, the Jews were scattered for close to 2000 years, but, ARE PRESENTLY being “regathered as a nation”. So, the times of the Gentiles treading down Jerusalem are coming to an end and we can pick up with end time prophesies from there.
The Lord then gives to them, and more specifically to us, the preceeding to the END OF DAYS:
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; {The Star of Bethlehem at His birth? More like it to come?} and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Any uncircumsized heathen who would enter the Holy of Holies would be an abomination and would defile it; especially when they were coming to make it completely “desolate”, “with no stone left unturned”. Of course, that is a major area of disputation which I don’t think I can handle being deverted by right now.
I understand this phrase as profound, although I don’t know who said it, it’s been attributed to Chuck Missler: “The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, and the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.”
I hope that helps. I’ve not even begun to read much further than that post, if I’ve even answered most in it, so, please be patient with me.
Can we take it a little slower, please, as it’s already moved beyond my being able to join what’s been said already.
So much for no chapter long posts.
Tom wrote:
” Is there a time that the kingdom will be restored to Israel?
Israel who? Israel the man Jacob? Israel the literal physical descendants of that man? Israel the political nation? Israel who?
When is that time?
Depends on what you define “Israel” to be, doesn’t it?
Has the Church replaced Israel?
Israel who? Israel the man Jacob? Israel the literal physical descendants of that man? Israel the political nation? Israel who?
What do you mean by replaced?
When is the Day of the YHWH/YHWH’s day?
The day of the Lord as found in the NT is the first day of the week; ie, Sunday.
Is Messiah going to rule from Jerusalem?
What Jerusalem? A geographical plot of land in Palestine? A spiritual reality?
Again, I can’t answer these questions without you defining your terms.”
Very coy!
The easy way is to tell us who you think Israel is. The apostles asked the question. What do you think that they meant? Just tell us who you think Israel is and how and when their kingdom is restored.
The “day of the Lord” is never used in the Bible to mean the first day of the week. It is obvious from what John says that he was in the spirit on the “day of the Lord” as everything he speaks about is about this day of all darkness and no light in it.
Sheila and Tom,
Thank you for working on expressing your own response to our challenges here on end time doctrinal viewpoints carrying into outlooks on Jesus as Redeemer. In this pursuit we embraced the boundary of talking about a Millennium as to considerations such a Plan may make about a literal reign of Christ after the Age of the Gentiles is usurped in an Israel accepting the sudden Return of their Messiah. Like with the study of photography, there seem to be endless nuances of applied theory for interpretation for what is possible, which indeed affect the outcomes of all the variables involved in getting a proper picture; this seems especially so as to the challenges of the testy season on earth at hand of keeping faith in the redeemer, as well as the relationship with the present day placement challenges of the State of Israel regarding the inevitability of such a pursuit (Acts 3:21, Mt 13:52, Acts 1:6, etc.).
Lovers of Israel, per God’s admonition to be so, naturally will be watching events there for indicators of promised holiness interactions in those regathered, through a reestablishing of FAITH in the People there, and by indicators of THE details of past promises made to Israel, Judah, and Ephriam in the Tenach (coming to fruition). Watched too as to these end times are indicators of the level of conflict we find recorded over the People of the Book in the Land as representing God’s own establishments in the earth for their own expectancy of Him. Such are rampant in the Prophets and the Revelation: over such establishment challenges, covenants matters, and issues of righteousness, holiness, and fidelity of changes in related souls over the keeping of God’s Word.
Your fifth paragraph on Romans and Israel is quite interesting in regards of these considerations, above, and the named four agreement statements Tom accepted as important to any doctrine of eschatology being of the appointed Christ in considering a reign of His making being possible on earth from a redeemed Jerusalem, according to Promises of Old and New framing. For the Nation the logical steps to such possibility will include a presently compelled pursuit of a National Devotional Center, with placement on Mt. Moriah.
Esau’s character was never formed by direct challenge and encounter with God, as was Israel’s, but both came to be in the first place because of Isaac, their shared natural father. As we all know of the Promise mentioned given of a testing of faith’s encounter for Isaac, and later to the struggle of the transition from Jacob to gaining the identity of Israel, was not extended to his brother–partly due to Jacob’s tutored deception and partly due to Esau’s disinterest in struggle to persist with encountering God. We see this today in the kind of passivity and active death culture of Islam proclaimed as sacred among the descendants of Esau, who seem to want the Promise of relationship with God without the personal struggle involved in its individual formation. Their “Prophet” was he of the decapitating sword, which grants no permission for the heart, head, and hands of its devotees to become of a unified service to God as being Father God. WE have warring destroying Allah, not Father God asserting its negations.
If one cannot struggle with God and yield to his Promise of internal law and liberty directly, one may substitute such a possibility with another way. Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy set the stage for the Visitation to the Nation, and the Return. One who struggles with God perseveres with Him. Soon the Nation will struggle with the very nature of Messiahship, and the very purpose of establishing a National Religious Center on tranditonal heritage ground where such action may embrace scheming and deception for such an inception. In the end, such will encounter God through the Return’s better establishments and pure intentions along the Nation’s present path toward believing the Promises God has made are completed in Jesus the true Messiah . The Covenant promises given to Abraham’s seed were indeed tested as proven by an encounter with God regarding sacrificing the very possibility of the Promises made to him, and that carried forth by the survivor of this encounter (by Jacob/Israel) also were engaged unwhittingly for the Land and People who would become the chosen Nation for the Visitation and Return of Jesus.
What external conditions in Israel, according to Zech., Compels the Return? What internal conditions of Israel, according to Jeremiah begat the Return? What, according to Isaiah, is established by the Return? Trusting God, with struggle for historical faith transactions which persevere in enlarging hearts toward the consent of obedience for an intimate yielding to the Bridegroom’s promise of protection and provision of His Own Bride are akin to the continuing Promises of Abraham.
As to a division of the timeline of Daniel, we have to look at the history of the People of the Book away from the Land, and its final satanic attack on their very existence. We have to acknowledge that Messiah was cut off, as Daniel stated which resulted in a lack of protection for the People and Messiah was jealous for his People to Return to the place where He was to establish His Righteous rule in the earth, set by the Word of the Prophets of Old, and as it is in heaven.
Remember, the Jews coming back to the land are not all there is to the regathering of Israel. They are only the beginning. The prophetic statements about gathering Israel from all the nations that they have been scattered, is still in it’s infancy.
I think that it would be good for us to purposefully start to delineate between Israel and Judah so as to minimize confusion and sloppy understandings of scriptural doctrine. Though it is appropriate to use the term “Israel” as inclusive of the Jews, it is problematic to use “Jews” as inclusive or a replacement of “Israel”.
Jeremiah 16 14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers. 16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. 17 For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes. 18 And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things. 19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Even though the regathering to the land has begun, there are many Israelites to be gathered. This regathering of Israel was prophesied before Judah was scattered. Who knows how long it will take for this to take place. It may be quite suddenly. It may be that the renewed interest in keeping Torah is due to this prophecy being fulfilled. The ones that can receive it just may be the now unidentifiable, scattered Israelites returning to obedience to YHWH. Even some gentiles will realize that they have inherited lies from their fathers (maybe church fathers).
Deuteronomy 30 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
There is to be a return to Torah among the scattered “Israelites” that precedes the regathering to the land. Not very many people could foresee the state of Israel being born in a day before it was thrust into re-existance. It could be that not many will understand YHWH’s working in His calling of the northern tribes (that are indistinguishable from the gentiles in which they have been assimilated) back to Torah. The Church may have more than replacement theology and antisemitism to repent of. Persecution/slander toward Torah observant believers may be just as much fighting against the seed of Abraham as the previous sins.
At any rate we should be looking for “Israel” and not just the “Jews” to be somehow returning to the land. It may be possible that the “rapture”, to use a common word, is the actual gathering and returning to the land in miraculous fashion. If not, then we should be expecting an interesting immigration to somehow be facilitated. The state of Israel is not accepting non-Jews at this time, so the northern tribes are unable to return. What if this policy is radically changeg? Now that would interesting…but not quite as interesting as flying through the air with “ten thousands of His saints.”
Shalom
Next time I’ll just site the verses and all can read them for themselves. I thought it might help to break it down just to get the basics of my understanding of things founded for you. Sorry for burdening you with them.
I’ll have to print what’s been discussed so far and write out my responses by hand, when possible, before being able to post them. I won’t be able to join for some days because of recent treatments. I realize I’ll be that much further behind, but, it can’t be helped.
I apologize if I offended you, Bo. As a Gentile, you sometimes make me feel like chopped liver. Let’s begin again from here. OK?
🙂
No offense taken. You may not be as gentile as you suppose. I may be more gentile than I suppose. YHWH grants mercy and grace to those that humble themselves before Him. It is an interesting time we live in. Knowledge is increasing. May we be able to accept the truth at all costs. YHWH’s time table is what counts. None of us know what that is for sure, so it behooves us to press in and be good and faithful servants.
Shalom
Tom, I attempted a scriptural defintion of Israel, as Paul refers to it, it my stated cited reference respose to Chuck. This speaks too of the Nation to which Jesus visited, and proclaimed his Kingdom and Kingship, and the words of Daniel over the Temple Mount from the Mt. of Olives. Of course, the suffering Servant who did not love his life unto death was among the Land of the People of the Book at that juncture, and spoke of Returning there after long events, and the fulcrum of possiblity, as is cited by Sheila, Lk. 21:24.
When in Israel in 1971 and ’72, I had placed a car for surveying the Land on a ship from Italy, after driving through Europe. I met other Jews and new believers on that ship, who I bumped into on the Temple Mount weeks later, once going our ways; this was coincidentally on the west side of the Dome of the Rock. We immediately agreed to lay our hands on it and ask the Father to bring it down and replace it with a house to his Name. Why this spontaneously happened, I had little idea, for I was just exploring my own roots after conversion earlier that summer in a campground in Colorado. I had seen miracles at the witness of those of the so-called Jesus movement coming into the public national forest campground where I had stayed a few weeks, and t=one spoke of the fulfillment of Prophecy in Israel, which brake thorugh my spiritual complacency enough to be challenged to read John and Matthew, and inquire of Jesus, “if you are really real”. He immediatley touched my heart with his invisible hand of affirmation, creating great wonder and fear in me, and convincing me of He, Messiah.
Cat Stevens “Morning Has Broken” was playing through the cafes of the streets of the Old City. This was prior to the 1973 war, with the elelation of the 1967 war’s uniting of Jerusalem under Israel warmly in both then youth Jewish and Jesus culture’s rejoicing. We exepected the Messiah to appear or reappear any moment. But those who held Jesusalem had many tests ahead over their own sovreignty.The Russan Jews were just beginning repatriation in Israel, and the Ethiopian airlifts had not begun. Most of the recent returnees were from Middle Eastern, then old European lands. It was a nation of Sabres (the new prickly pear catus like tenacious Isreali born generation), established Zionists of the former Century and beyond, and pocket old word commnities.
These did not trust those who once commanded the Land, with many changes of the guard so to speak, for most in recent memory had made it difficult for the Return of the People of the Book to Happen. Britian in particular had broken its declared promises to the Jews. Wars too had displaced them even further from the notion of “next year in Jerusalem”.
After Saul, and David, Soloman was king for four years, then built the Temple to the Lord, his “footstool” on the planet, and center of presence at that time. He taxed heavily, and like with the US Capitol building, used some slave labor, and tribal rotational labor for considerable development all over the Land. He ended up lighting incense to foreign Gods, in spite of the “glory of the Lord” manifesting at its dedication.
Judah was blessed with more good kings than of the history of Israel, and more cunning treachery. Who would bear the throne of David forever with justice, mercy, and lovingkindness? David, who had installed Moses’ ark of the covenant in a tent on Mt. Zion (ps. 24; 2 Saml. 6; cf Numb. 4:15 on the death of Uzzah). He honored the placement of the Lord in the chosen settlement capitol city with a psalm (I Chron. 14, Pslm 9, 105, 106) and by establishing a ministry of ongoing Levitical singers under Asaph (I Chron. 25; 16: 5, 37, 42). David helped organize 38,000 Levites under hereditary leaders, making them doorkeepers, teasurers, area judges (ibid 23-26). This was the foundation for expansion, alliances, and infrastructure latter embellished and consolidated under his son, Soloman, who would build a house for the Ark of the Lord.
A dynasty was established to culminate in the incarnation of covenants promised David of God’s Son (II Saml. 7:13, 14). About half of the Psalms are attributed to David, and many of these allude to the coming Lord. Ps. 22 is most famous as to its considered fulfillments of our Suffering Servant Lord. And, as Daniel said too, Messiah was “cut off”, from David’s Land of the Living.
Daniel said much much more about His people and the time of the end than this. The purchased threshing floor on Mt. Moriah, just No. of then Jeusalem, became identified as David’s placemnt of sacrice and for the very House of God (I Chron. 22, Pslm 30). This can only be understood in the crudible of the time and place as most significant of some kind of permanancy of righteous cultic devotion to the One God. David received in writing from the Ruach Ha Kodesh (the Holy spirit) the plans for the Temples construction (28: 12, 19). Promises were given about his throne stretching into timeless intention, as had Moses also mentioned the coming One.
The Kings of Israel then carried the legacy of expectancy from a divine source of Promise. How then would a Millennium regardful of the reestablished Israel bear on the promises given both David, and Moses (and many Prophets) about the coming One? Do you know from the Prophets of Old what these are? Of current consideration in the hearts of those in Israel working to establish a National Religious Heritage Center on the Mount–a Temple in many organizations’ focus–is a rediscovery of their own identity. Do you find that identity linked to the Teturn? Is there more than symbolism established from a Premillenial outlook of hope and expectation about the Placement in the Land of the People of the Book? What do the Prophets say is to come to pass (Acts 3:21)?
mY FIRST PARAGRAPH brake=broke. Other typos: placemnt of sacrice+placement of sacrifice. crudibel= crucible. Teturn=return.
Jabez,
I’ve just fallen into an incredibly busy time at work, so I will be slow and short in my responses for now.
From what you’ve written so far, I can see we start from two majorly different assumptions in this discussion.
You believe that there are many “incomplete promises” re: OT prophesy and NT statements.
I believe everything has been completed in Christ, and that all that remains is the sound of the trumpet calling His saints to meet Him in the air.
Basically that seems to be what this discussion and our difference of eschatological opinion comes down to.
I emphatically DO NOT believe in a restored Jerusalem temple with renewed sacrifices.
All that said, your questions strike me more as something that one would find in the “review questions” section of a textbook, and each one could potentially be an essay prompt by itself – so for this reason I find it hard to answer all of them. If you would like, I will start with the first ones and work my way down, but it will not be a quick process.
Tom,
You wrote: “I believe everything has been completed in Christ, and that all that remains is the sound of the trumpet calling His saints to meet Him in the air.”
Now I see why we get nowhere in our dialogues. Do you have a passage that says that “everything is completed in Christ”? Why did Paul agree to participate in the temple statutes if it was already completed? Do you think that the gospel being preached to the nations was completed in Messiah? Could He have returned 20 days after He ascended?
Shalom
Tom, the writer of Hebrews stated that the Old was “being replaced” by the New. Jesus spoke of mutual consideration (Mt. 13:52). Bo has been accurate in carrying forth the fulfillments of the Messiah based on the appointments of the Hebrew calendar. Jesus was sent to the House of Israel, the Apostles to the Nations. Later Isaian awaits much from Jesus, as does Zech 8-14, the latter part of Ezkl., etc.
It is a convenience to only accept the interpretations of the Gospels prophetic citings as completed, for, it leaves no personal responsibility to examine other outstanding promises given of God in other covenants. I respected your earlier statements on having boundaries on searching out a scriptural New Covenatn and Old Covenant harmony of definitions, and your stated dismissal of doing the work. I can accept your statement of a careful interaction on the questions I raised. I trust there is no smugness in assumptions you have made.
As for me and my household we trust that once God promises something to someone somewhere sometime, it will happen. Israel, now reformed, will pesevere with pursuit of God, according to their scaled eyes understanding of his reuirements and blessings and curses. There is a considerable remnant of Israeli born citizens now coming to accept Yeshua as Messiah, who are working among the People of the Book in the Land.
We must all take literally the words of Jesus spoken from the Mt. of Olives, and his respect of the prophets. I challenged you, Tom, to read Acts 3:21 in more than one translation as a prerequiste which you accepted in order to examine whether or not an earthly reign from Jerusalem is promised by David, Moses, and the Prophets, prior to the judgement sear of Christ coming to pass. This is the crux of exploration here, and is a matter, I assert, of the God of scripture keeping his own detailed promises.
I look forward to our interchange, in Christ.
Jabez,
Reading these things, I remain unconvinced that the promise of an earthly reign of Christ is found in scripture. I will briefly lay out my reasons here.
1) I find absolutely no evidence in the New Testament for Jesus returning to reign on this earth. Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world – John 18:36
2) I have a problem with reading 1000 in Rev 20 literally because if we do this then the 144,000 must be read literally as well to be consistent.
3) I find no New Testament evidence whatsoever for a reconstruction of the temple, a reinstitution of sacrifices, or a regathering of all nations to the Palestinian geographical location.
4) I do not consider the newspaper an authoritative commentary on Biblical interpretation. Just because events in the political state of Israel may currently line up with a certain interpretation of the inspired word does not then necessarily validate that interpretation.
5) I consider God’s Old Testament promises to Israel to have been fulfilled in Christ, who is the true Israel (Isaiah 49:3 and following; Isaiah 42:6 and surrounding; Matt 2:15, cf Hosea 1:11) and the obedient Son and Servant that national Israel was called to be but never could
If I need to clarify anything, let me know. I enjoy reading your opinion on all of this, even if my current capacity to interact is limited, Tom
Tom, Reading what things? Peter to his nation? Promises stated to Israel in the Prophets of old by Coventants related statements? What the God promised Moses and David? What? Can you be more descriptive and correlative of the requests made of you, item by item? We have to have some kind of template of subjects raised regarding a response. As it is, it does not pick up with the requests made, item by item. So, let’s start with what Peter stated, in Acts 3:21, what does it say to you? And what did Peter say as a paraphrase in that passage? To whom was it stated as New Covenant truth? Why, and to what end?
If we can begin here, our similarities and differences may become more apparent regarding establishing a communication feedback loop, source to source, and reference by reference.
I know what you have stated, which is the classical amillennial view, should I have the opportunity then, after the above, to break down the assumption as to specifics not yet completed from the Promises of the Tenach, or would getting that specific in my responses then bring up this statement each and every instance of unfulfilled prophecy as yet by the initial work of the Messiah?
In other words, instead of stating that you see no need for an earthly rule, especially so as a literal number of years, and your reasons, can we proceed by classifying and mentioning each of the four areas of discussion you agreed to, and then make specific references and specific responses to these?
I pick up that you have no empathy for a scenario of a literal millennial time period reign prior to the judgment of Christ, but, setting aside that concern, I would like to proceed with scriptural statements past given the family of David, and the Kings of Israel and Judah, when united and when not, and state these, then you could inform me how these were completed and do not require an earthly reign prior to the judgment of the Messiah. Is this a reasonable request as to process and proceedure?
Another day of rest maybe. I’m sneaking this in, though.
Mat 13:52 And he said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house, who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old.”
The treatment I’ve had is for the collapsed vertebre in my neck and back. It’s not so serious, just very painful. The relief it offers for extended periods of time is greatly appreciated. Shortly, this is what it entails and I highly recommend it to others with similar vetebre injuries. The doctor first injects pain medication together with a mucle relaxer in a series of eight places. Then these are followed by another series of eight injections of cortizon and something else. (? anti-inflamatory) Then eight metal prons (probes?) are inserted where the injections were, I’m still a little fuzzy, they are pushed in and I’m grounded out while radio frequencies are passed between them. It leaves me very bruised and absolutely wobbily and I’m not allowed to sit up, or, to lift anything or move about for days on end. It seems like forever, to me, anyway. I asked him, jokingly, if I could pick the radio station myself. No can do, but, he laughed really hard. 😮
Jabez,
Reading what things? Peter to his nation? Promises stated to Israel in the Prophets of old by Coventants related statements? What the God promised Moses and David? What?
All of the above.
Can you be more descriptive and correlative of the requests made of you, item by item?
Which requests? The essay questions? (such as this one from post #71: After Pentecost, hearing the commotion, the Nation asked for an explanation. What is happening here, what does it mean, why the commotion?
Please, it is super hard to know what is a question you want an answer to and what is rhetorical in your posts above. In some of them it is also hard to know what kind of answer you are looking for, since like an essay question approaches to it can reasonably vary. If you would number your specific, non-rhetorical questions to me in future posts so they are unmistakable and clear, that would help.
So, let’s start with what Peter stated, in Acts 3:21, what does it say to you? And what did Peter say as a paraphrase in that passage? To whom was it stated as New Covenant truth? Why, and to what end?
It says Christ will be returning to restore all things, i.e. paradise lost becomes paradise regained in the New Heavens and the New Earth – this one is rolled up like a garment and cast off.
I don’t know what paraphrase you mean.
It was spoken to the Jews.
To the end of preaching Christ crucified, for the sins of the world.
I know what you have stated, which is the classical amillennial view, should I have the opportunity then, after the above, to break down the assumption as to specifics not yet completed from the Promises of the Tenach, or would getting that specific in my responses then bring up this statement each and every instance of unfulfilled prophecy as yet by the initial work of the Messiah?
Knock yourself out. I understand that there are still things to do that will be fulfilled in Christ at His return, so no, I won’t pull out my check list and say “everything has a check but the end of the world”.
In other words, instead of stating that you see no need for an earthly rule, especially so as a literal number of years, and your reasons, can we proceed by classifying and mentioning each of the four areas of discussion you agreed to, and then make specific references and specific responses to these?
That’ll work.
I pick up that you have no empathy for a scenario of a literal millennial time period reign prior to the judgment of Christ…
None whatsoever – no clear evidence outside of Rev 20 points to that being the case.
…but, setting aside that concern, I would like to proceed with scriptural statements past given the family of David, and the Kings of Israel and Judah, when united and when not, and state these, then you could inform me how these were completed and do not require an earthly reign prior to the judgment of the Messiah. Is this a reasonable request as to process and proceedure?
That sounds fantastic and, dare I say, fun!
Tom,
Acts 1 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Who is Israel above? What did the apostles mean when they asked? Israel is Israel…all 12 tribes. They new the promises in scripture of the regathering in the last days when YHWH’s chosen would return to obedience to YHWH with all their hearts. (Deut. 30:1-6)
Messiah did not tell them that this restored kingdom to Israel would not happen. He did not say that the plan had changed and that the 12 tribes of Israel would not be regathered. He said that it was not for them to know the timing of things that YHWH retained for Himself.
I’m not sure that you know this, but the Jews will not accept Y’Shua as messiah for the very doctrine you hold. The scriptures are all too obviously full or a physical reign of the Biblical Messiah. They look at Y’shua as a pretender because of this. We get a hint of this in the apostles question above. They are saying what about all those prophecies about a conquering, kingly Messiah. The Jews today say the same.
We have seen Messiah ben Joseph, but Messiah ben David is absent as of yet. Quite simply Y’shua Messiah has not fulfilled those prophecies…yet.
The new heavens and earth will have no curse. The millennial reign will. When is the interval of time the passage below will be operable?
Zechariah 14 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Shalom
Tom,
When did this take place?
Ezekiel 11 14 And the word of the LORD came to me: 15 “Son of man, your brothers, even your brothers, your kinsmen, the whole house of Israel, all of them, are those of whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Go far from the LORD; to us this land is given for a possession.’ 16 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: Though I removed them far off among the nations, and though I scattered them among the countries, yet I have been a sanctuary to them for a while in the countries where they have gone.’ 17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’
Shalom
Tom,
Ezekiel 37 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
When was this fulfilled?
Shalom
Thanks to all of you for your prayers and good wishes! It means a great deal to me. I’ll have to take it slowly for some more days, but, I’ve prepared some inquiries that really stump me, and are important to help me understand the connection between Daniel and the Revelation given to John by our Lord. I started on some earlier, so, I’ll submit them, but, most are moot and unnecessary to bring up now. Please disregard any typos unless I’ve edited anything that may read “opposite” than what I’ve intended, I’ll let them go and all of you can do the same. I can read your intentions around them. Again, thanks for your prayers!
While Dr. Brown, for the most part, doesn’t see end time events as that important, I find anything and everything in the Bible of major interest to me. That it doesn’t effect our salvation unless we have to choose between who we will worship, I agree with. Our major focus should be on winning more souls for Christ, or, at the least, supporting those who do. I can’t go flitting about like I used to, so, I do what I can to support the “worker bees” and modern day true apostles. Still, I’m interested in sorting it out, as well as it can be understood. I think many times we don’t truly see things until they are right in our faces and we see them being played out before our eyes. While we can observe the major apostasy and modern moral standards that are more akin to Sodom and Gomorrah, we are to be found going about the Lord’s work to the very hour of His appearing. We are, too, to be able to give “meat in due season” concerning His soon return. The stronger of us holding up the weak in the Body with comfort and encouragement to press in.
Post # 76 Jabez- “due to Esau’s disinterest in struggle to persist with encountering God. We see this today in the kind of passivity and active death culture of Islam proclaimed as sacred among the descendants of Esau, who seem to want the Promise of relationship with God without the personal struggle involved in its individual formation. Their “Prophet” was he of the decapitating sword, which grants no permission for the heart, head, and hands of its devotees to become of a unified service to God as being Father God. WE have warring destroying Allah, not Father God asserting its negations.”
Your description of the path Esau chose to follow, culminating in the Muslims re-writing the Scriptures in order to insert Ishmael in place of Isaac concerning the test on Mt. Moriah as given to Abraham and never “struggling” to take hold of the “promise”, though, by birthright, it should have been his to claim is right to the heart of the matter. Esau, rather, chose to seek revenge and death to Jacob, causing Jacob to flee from Esau’s murderous rage. Jacob will never flee again and is poised to fully be named “Israel”. We see the culmination of Esau’s decendents “holding the old hatred forever.” That Israel is once more emcompassed by their enemies, kept in on every side, is further proof of the very imminent fulfillment of their supernatural deliverance as stated by the prophets. I see the deliverance as coming from a little help at first from an earthly source, i.e., another nation. The U.S., as I see it, is the only one at present that fits the bill. I don’t believe the naysayers that open their mouths to curse our nation, as Balaam was hired to do concerning Israel. The Lord has each nation in place and exactly where He wants them to be, doing exactly what He wants them to do. So, ultimately, when we are left with no strength of our own, our strength is the Lord. Some months ago we gave, only to Israel, our latest figher jets and information technology to defend themselves. To the tune of 400 billion, I’ll gladly finance that with taxes, no matter the Corporation reaping the profits! That our standing with Israel, and possibly being the nation to defend them, with our demise as the result, does not bother me in the least. Perhaps the Lord will have them alone and on their knees before they will cry out to Him, as He has proclaimed them a “stiff-necked” people from the beginning.
The Muslim decendents of Esau, which I attribute to Edom, Moab and more particularly to Idumea as stated by the Lord in “bathing His sword in heaven” first, and then coming from Edom with “clothes dyed in red”, as in Isa. 63, Isa. 34, Obadiah 1, Jer. 49:15-22 (They haven’t, yet, been destroyed as Sodom and Gomorrah were) , Eze. 25:12-14, (unless it speaks to Judas Maccabees as they have yet to be fully realized.) and like prophesies concerning them, are now known as radical Muslims who are poised to complete their murderous hatred of the decendents of Jacob. Israel has only just begun to, “wrestle with God”, and recognize their Redeemer and Savior, in order to receive the fulness of the blessing of true Salvation in the Messiah they rejected. That their supernatural adversary (the same as ours) would want Israel’s earthly help removed and exterminated completely, I can fully understand this aspect of it.
An article which pretty much sums up my points of contentions re: this now predominant view of eschatology:
Bo, in post # 77 “I think that it would be good for us to purposefully start to delineate between Israel and Judah so as to minimize confusion and sloppy understandings of scriptural doctrine.”
You’ll have to help me with that delineation as I have trouble understanding it myself. The division of the nation into Israel and Judah are not yet as “one” nation again. Are you speaking of the Ten Tribes? Because I can see where the ten are, at present, still “lightly distilled among the nations.” yet, slowly drifting back. (?)
Just as spoken previously, so, it is today. “Who say they are Jews, but, they lie.” Not all Jews are “of Israel” as they will welcome the false Messiah when he arrives. That would be Esau’s decendents; Palestinians, etc.
“19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.”
This is so clearly those of Islam and of Pagan India and Communist China and such, that it is not worthy to include those Gentiles who are “in Christ” as part of those who “have inherited lies”. Can you see who those are who have inherited these lies from their false prophet, Muhammed, and worshipping idols in India, and worshipping the Chairman in China, and are now up and coming players in worldly arena? Who is it that will “come and lick the dust off of the feet” of those whom the Lord has chosen? Who is it that will come bowing down to God’s chosen? Surely you are not putting Christians in this category. Will you concede that point as a brother in Christ? We must press in as part of the same Body, as you said. We are a new man in Christ. So, maybe we should refer to Gentiles as simply Nations, when distinquished form the Nation of Israel and the Body of Christ from now on.
As the Lord has spoken, so shall it come to pass. The Twelve Apostles will be “reigning over the Twelve Tribes of Israel” in the Millenium. Messiah will be King over all the earth, with the Apostles, not the initial Twelve Heads of the Tribes of Israel, reigning with Him.
I’ll have to finish reading the article, later, Tom. I’ve printed it out.
I differ, with Lindsey, and “left-behiners” in that they have as their basic premise, that we in Christ, are not subject to any part of a seven yera tribulation period.
I don’t subsribe to that at all.
Pre-wrath, definitely. Escaping any discomfort whatsoever, absolutely not. It’s said the children of Israel were subject to some of the same plagues of Egypt before being supernaturally distinqished by the Lord. I see a similar senario in the Revelation. To try us as Gold is refined in a furnace. So, I gave up their brand of end time pronouncements. And I don’t follow the news everyday looking for the minutest point to throw in with prophesy. There are many sincere Christians, though, who hold that view, but, I don’t read it that way. And when the troubles come, what will they say?
“For ‘that day’ will not come ‘until’ the man of sin is revealed.”
I’ve really got to stop cracking myself up with my typos; I better rest.
“left-behiners”–too funny.
Tom, Once again your last URL reference posted has been to present the view you stated you espouse. As with other remarks here, it jumps ahead of our step by step agreement on how to proceed. It seems to have clouded an approach in itself to the subject–as to the four areas we are meeting on–for, as I posted earlier, in #71 toward its final statemens of scriptural reference: the section of Revl. 20 involving the Millenniem involved clearly delinniated certain wars before and after its two “resurrections” of stated groups of the dead. I am not here to represent a pretribulation period “rapture” either, but an examiniation of the Promises given by God to the people of the Land of the Book. I am also not here to spend time on who is Judah, Israel, and Ephriam today, as that can involve endless speculation. It is clear that we have a State of Israel today, with Netanyahu’s agenda of rediscovering its national Heritage, and so from a so-aligned Jewish Jerusalem.
The Greek word used for what happens in the Revelation around the Millennium statement was quoted by me, and, yes, as mentioned too was the citation of the time period. Of concern is where your [Tom’s] interpretation after poasting 71 reads in a new heaven and new earth to the passage extra to the passage (around an image of a scrolled up defiction of literal events) which does not appear of the passage. In fact it is brought to carry in an interpretive view based on an assumptive communication intention and read into the passage. To me this depicts a prejudicial outlook on what is described, which we agreed to address through the process described. And you, Tom, mentioned a more casual approach than a demand by demand approach on this chosen forum exploration instrument. I will not chase other URLs as rabbit trails to that endeavor which we agreed upon. If you wish to bring in some argumentation you read elsewhere to this dveloped discussion so be it, but, fatihfully so here item by item, not as, once again, a blanket approach to all details specifically raised to be addressed. This fails our agreement in principal and fact. It is not faithful to the step by step apprach agreed to.
Your other objection was the literal reference to one thouseand years as is given in the passage. You compare this with doubt to another letter literal reference of 144,000 from an earlier portion of the Revelation (by the way, which you did not state or cite what is revealed there indeed as to 12,000 of each of the tribes (X12) granting this number). The latter reference again, is taken totally out of context and is dismissed with prejudice as well. We are dealing with the redemptive nature of God, his Christ, and the events around that throughout history, which will require some spedcific cues from the passage and our attention for understanding these in the history of God’s working out of redemption.
I am not here to defend those numbers, as they are given by a heavenly vision to John. Clearly, for point of reference, the 144,000 of the vision differ entirely from “a great multitude”, who wash their tobes in the blood of the lamb, which is not numbered of another passage for good reason. Whether or not the 12,000 from each tribe is literal remains for Jesus himself to count, as given, not for my own arithmatic. Why should I doubt the capability of the Creator to seal a certain number of Jews for a time period for holy service and special mission, as “virgins”? These descriptors do not limit or permit God’s own actions by the application of human doubt or count of any literal nature of their depiction. Your prejudical approach to the passage does.
Later, in the picture at the end of the heavenly Jerusalem, we have each tribe in relationship to the gates into the city, and the 12 Apostles too with certain foundational roles of its establishment. Should I, by the logic used, doubt their literal number applying to the gates and foundations as well? If we are dealing with the supernatural actions of the Redemption of our Savior, including a Return as “He left” in the clouds, why the poo poo of a literal number of a season of Messianic reign on earth as is stated to complete promises given Israel in its present literalness or presentation in our time by the actions and agreements of the Redeemer? I cannot reduce your interpretation to what you have read into the passage and dicover the true maening or value of it in context.
Taking one portion of scripture, or of the Revelation literally, as you may for example of seven churches in the then presenting political world of Roman emperor worship, would be far removed from such a reference’s intentions, as we are so cued by the Greek cited in #71. And I am not here to say whether the Millennial number of years of rule is exacting, or the number of those used for holy purposes of the tribes when confronting the spiritual enemy of Christ is exacting, but, a first and second resuurection are certainly depicted as so–linguistically, as to the people groups described (covered in my #71), and as to separating actions of war against the placement involved. It is too descriptively exacting to ignore it as meaning something else entirely than what it states. If the battles around its account are only sysmbolic too, why be so exacting in descriptions?
We could carry the lack of faithful passage exegesis you gave, Tom, into all the New Testament and come up with a symbolic or figurative historical Yeshua, doubt the Almah birth meaning of a virgin, dismiss him because his character was Immannuel, not the literal Name he received, etc. No, Yeshua was sent to Irael, and for its consolation, to which he referes of concern while he is absent over time in Mt. 24-25 as “the least of these, my brethren”. Not only do we have to interpret both literally, and descriptively, we do not have the right to dismiss and add too the character or exacting actions, means, charges to the faithful, and results of the savior’s considered realtionships to him being the Word of God, which overarches the Revelation in fact and deed.
Go back to the 20th chapter, in fact to other sections of the Revelation, where figurative reality is cast, as well as literal reality. What would we do with the drama of the 11th chapter without some confirming detailed information in historical placement–make it all figurative, e.g. one of those witnesses killed being the word of the Old Covenant, the other the Word of the New? Why lay in the streets of the city for a figurative consequence? No, the entire Revelation is about the named Word of God person, and his considered actions extended to certain named people in the setting surrounding his orginal story, but too as correlating with the future promises and language of the Prophets, and the literal timeline of Daniel which also surrounds the Nation’s history. This is complex and detailed, anc needs our step by step examination for God’s own faithfulness to his Word.
Jabez,
I will not chase other URLs as rabbit trails to that endeavor which we agreed upon. If you wish to bring in some argumentation you read elsewhere to this dveloped discussion so be it, but, fatihfully so here item by item, not as, once again, a blanket approach to all details specifically raised to be addressed. This fails our agreement in principal and fact. It is not faithful to the step by step apprach agreed to.
Did I ask you to read it? No. It was interesting to me and I thought this board would benefit from it, but I never even so much as implied that it was for you.
I’m not trying to deflect, I just posted that link as a good touchstone on my views. I clearly remember saying I have no felt need to defend my views such as they are.
By the way, (and no offence meant, but…) the consistent application of engorged verbosity compromises the lucidity of your endeavors to communicate and obfuscates the import of your side of our interchange.
In other words: simple language is easier to read through. I can’t quite put my finger on it (maybe an overuse of adjectives?), but it is really hard for me to wade through some of your posts, and I have to keep re-reading the same sentance often in order to understand what you are saying.
And you, Tom, mentioned a more casual approach than a demand by demand approach on this chosen forum exploration instrument.
Indeed I did, (though 1000 word posts aren’t what I had in mind) and I’m all for having this conversation; I’m really not trying to squirm out of anything as it seems I have been misinterpreted as doing.
That said, what is it specifically you want me to say? I mean, I’m not asking for “demand-by-demand”, I’m just asking for clarification. You are making a whole lot of assertions – do you want me to comment on them? Do you want me to offer my opinion on the truth of your words? I really don’t understand what my role is here. You also ask certain questions, but again, I’m not sure when these are rhetorical and when they are directed at me. Could you help me by clarifying what it is I’m supposed to do?
Earlier you said:
I would like to proceed with scriptural statements past given the family of David, and the Kings of Israel and Judah, when united and when not, and state these, then you could inform me how these were completed and do not require an earthly reign prior to the judgment of the Messiah.
So lets do that, or else tell me what my role is, give me a job description.
Also, Tom, have you read “Our Hands and Stained with Blood,” by Michael L. (Dr.) Brown? There is ground covered therein and thereby as to your drift so far here. Basic definitions of replacement theology, who is Israel, etc. are expounded well therein. RSVP.
Tom, the four phrased statements, do they naturally raise any questions as to what they may be stating being the case?
Tom, the four phrased statements, do they naturally raise any questions as to what they may be stating being the case? We have to have some common foundation, for example as to what is the “Gospel”, to then discuss other matters. You might look up the Commonwealth of Israel, and the Israel of God to view some historical divisions, and common understandings from both Testaments. What will those broken off branches be regrafted into in Rom 9-11, for example. Who are referred to as Gentiles in that passage, and who is Israel in it, and in the final statement on such in Galations. We may explore some other understandings prior to addressing amillennialism, and its lack.
I have not, but it’s beginning to look like this conversation is setting up to be a bigger drain of my time than I’m willing to allow. Like I previously said, my focus is on Jesus, on the cross, 2000 years ago, not speculation about the future.
That said, while I’m happy to answer questions on my views (if phrased in a clear, understandable, well-defined way), I’m not willing to do extra-curricular study on the subject at this point in time.
Without finding Dr. Brown’s assertion, I can only give my understanding of who Israel is, was, and always will be.
I don’t see any indication of a “spiritual” Israel as some express it. I believe Israel means the literal nation of the people know as Israel.
There is one indication of debate in the verse, Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. KJV
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. NIV
In the Greek Lexicon it is defined as follows:
Israel = “he shall be a prince of God”
1) the name given to the patriarch Jacob (and borne by him in addition to his former name)
2) the family or descendants of Israel, the nation of Israel
3) Christians, the Israel of God (Gal 6:16), for not all those who draw their bodily descent from Israel are true Israelites, i.e. are those whom God pronounces to be Israelites and has chosen to salvation.
To me, this means that only those in Christ will be accounted a “Prince with God”, in the verse of Galatians.
I don’t have Dr. Brown’s book either, and can’t afford to get it any time soon.
Tom, It is a simple foundation, which is based on scripture’s definitions and concepts, as to coming from either perspective toward understanding what Daniel and Paul called “the time of the end,” last days, or end times (depending on translation primarily). I guess I misunderstood you in the past as to wanting to find a definition of Israel, and, on the earlier forum, as to being open to change, where so.
Jesus stated that the bridegroom would appear suddenly, that we should prepare (light and trim) our lamps, and wait always. In Mt. 24-25 his perspective seemed to be to indeed answer the questions which were put to him by sincere disciples. I think of you as a reader and surveyor of truth, so was unaware that issues of control of its gatekeeping may have been stirred up somehow.
Sheila, The scripture does not change from Old to New as to who is Israel, or the Israel of God among Israel. Otherwise we would be confused. In Ephesians Paul speaks of both, and these being formed together into “one new man”. Paul had many ways of promoting his understanding of the love of God shed abroad in our hearts. It seems that what Paul is summarizing in Galations, about the Israel of God is the very people group he earlier refers to in the letter. Scripture is not broken; it does not change its primary references. It is remarkably consistent. The love of God established in Jesus Christ holds together all reality, temporary and not so, and will eclispe these end times with His Return. The doctrine of Restoration is vital to understanding how the Old and New merge, where so, when, and why.
third line should read, Paul speaks of both Jew and Gentile, and these being formed into one new man, etc.
There is an adequate discussion defining Israel posted by Dr. Brown in this website portal as well.
So, in the lexicon definition we should not understand the 3rd reference as it reads: “3) Christians, the Israel of God (Gal 6:16),” but, as refering to only those of Israel who accepted Messiah?
I’ll have to pick it up later when my mind is refreshed.
Jabez,
Pulling forward your post from the other section we have:
I agree.
As for the different understandings of the nation of Israel, I am aware of the different approaches taken. It is for this reason I have asked to have those of you engaging to provide your own understanding to promote understanding.
In my understanding, the “Israel” in Rom 11.26 is to be understood as the elect from both the Jews and Gentiles cumulatively.
Wow, rereading that last post I think my mind needs refreshing too. I could have stated all of that more fluidly.
Jabez,
Haha, I’m not sure whether to be offended of flattered. I’m not sure what you mean here, could you rephrase?
Jabez,
I appreciate that you think defining Israel should be a simple task, but as Sheila’s lexicon citation demonstrates, it is not. If you would lay out for us in clear terms exactly what you understand Israel to be (which shouldn’t be difficult since it appears you believe in 1 single definition alone) instead of redirecting us to books we don’t own or posting areas we will have to search out (as opposed to providing the link for us) I really think this would be preferable.
Thanks,
Tom
Daniel, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John all have references to “these last days” (see II Tim 3). It is a season, in the Age of the Gentiles [Daniel’s reference], where we are challenged to be efficient in our illumination of lamps lit and trimmed for expectancy of the sudden announcement of the Return–as is couched in the fulfillments of the Prophets of Old in Israel (per Acts 3:21, while considering who the Apostle is speaking to).
Perilous tunes have come, and will continue until the Return. Apostacy and pleasure seeking in the place of discipleship with Jesus as our teacher are scattered throughout the present culture of this nation and the Nations. Peter, in his second letter, cites the source of apostasy and its false assumptions to those among us, not of us (like with John), and their ways, error, motivations, and liberalism. Redemption truth, redemption plans then are of Jesus alone–who carries these, as predicted, by his Promises given through the Prophets of Old, and the Plan for Israel, the Church, and the Nations.
There is denial: of the person of our Lord, the Way of our Lord, the values and heart of our Lord. There is substitutionary motivation in place of redemptive intention. The incarnation is substituted for a limited and limiting “historical Jesus”. Petty Tyrants assert their insistence along with the characteristics of liberalism among those easily preyed upon by these false teachers lusts for power, laciviousness, and greed. Focus for the Kingdom is dissipated a thousand ways, not to mention robbed by the cares of the world, and verdict of this life.
We are challenged, in a most timely and expectant way, to regard Jesus as redeemer, always. Whether it be of the stuff of a poor childhood, human love betrayed, dashed egos, economic turnarounds, bodily failure, and emotional losses and disappointments–what this marketplace world has promised it cannot truly deliver. Even if we had it all, we would age, and die, and cannot transport whatever was supposed gain into the next life.
Paul stated, based on the model of knowing and walking with his Lord, that, “the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love”. In this Kingdom tendency we find meaning, outworking of faith, future and past hope, and a love that is consistently present in the face of apostacy and distrust.
Our understanding of what Jesus has done is vital to comprehending what He will do, has planned, and promises in the very last days of the Age of the Gentiles. Jesus spoke of that Age as passing (Luke 21:24), of the generation that sees Jerusalem and Israel restored seeing the Return. We must prepare our hearts, minds, and vessels for a cooperative, unified, and nonshadowy clear alliance with faith in the Promises given us of Christ.
#64, Tom, one backs away from what one was moving toward when personal emotional meaning of phrases like what “Amillennialsim lacks” trigger such inner person responses. Come on, brother, you now want to be spoon fed when what your mind of Christ trust tendency has already led you from glory to glory, source to source for truth, and a trusting heart toward Jesus? We have not seen anything yet as this Age comes to the end Jesus spoke about. Your (and my) lamp needs both lighting, and trimming–constant attention and abiding–find the source on Israel in this present site, read it, then get back with me (and Sheila, Ruth, Ben KC, Dave, etc.).
#60, Sheila. Your dictionary or reference book is correct in mentioning these person regardful variant meanings as emerged as human understanding as compreheneded as such over time. What is important to understanding Scriptural reference is to inquire what is the Redeemer’s own meaning and definition? Recall that the Church mistakenly thought for the most part, up until the restoration of Israel, that it was the true “Israel of God,” due to assumptive default. Then Israel began to regather.
And a careful reading of Romans 9-11 says something different entirely than the church=the Israel of God. When I was a Presbyterian I was taught that the church replaced Israel;then,when disillusioned with its political Ekklesia, and divorce advocacies, rather than grounding its redemptive Ekklesia I was challenged to discover otherwise. I spent some years mulling it over, before coming to understand that not all “of Israel” are “Israel” [or are “the Israel of God”]. It is seated in dispensationalism, the notion that the church replaced Israel and is the Israel of God. Take the blessings, natural Israel gets the curses was the belief. It is true that natural Israel [Judah and Ephriam] was separated from that Promised, but for a season for good reason.
It is no accident that the book “Our Hands are Stained with Blood” was written when it was, as it was, and clarifying what it did. This confirmed what I came to understand over many years, as just read a few years ago. If you own a few books as essential ones, own this one, for it was revealed to a redeemed Eagle Saint of Israel, who can claim no other continuous pedigree than that of the Redemptive Actions of God on his life, days, and comprehension: given for our instruction.
There is a chapter on who is Israel, largely reproduced as researched by Dr. Brown on this site. Site search it. In these last days we are challenged to light our lamps, trim them, abide in Christ, and be perpared for the announcement of our wedding feast. Do you think it wise to read the guest list, know the names of the attendees, and the particulars and invited pricipals involved? Check http://www.bookfinder.com. You can afford this book as a used copy.
“The Israel of God,” of late Galations, is referenced in Paul’s ways of building on his insights, in earlier Galations, in Ephesians, in Romans, etc.
The Commonwealth of Israel is the Tenach reference for comprehension, then realizing that all the Prophets proclaim righteous obedient living as needful of being the faithful, elected and chosen “Israel of God,” in addition to meeting the literal particulars.
If the Welch, English, Scots, Irish, etc. could meld into a “United Kingdom”, how did it become so–yet while retaining their particular ethnic identities through it all? No true Scot of Irishman would calim to be an Englishman.
What does Paul mean in Romans 9-11 when he says, “not all who are [named, or, are of] Israel are Israel?” Read in in the total context of the passage, the breaking off [from what?] and the regrafting in, and, finally the inclusion for salvation. Recall Jesus said too, “they will not see me again until they say, blessed is he who comes [present tense] in the Name of the Lord”.
This is not a casual subject for our edified intellectual comprehension, it is vital information for our working with the redemptive Plan of God for these last days, and final events, or these end times. We will increasingly need one another’s support and mutual edifying scriptural insight to walk the walk, do the talk, and light the lamps of loving as He loved.
Jabez,
I think you’ve misread me. If you are referring to my reaction to your post #53 and your comment about what amil lacks, I was not responding out of emotion or taking anything personally at all. In fact, I fully accept that amil views may not account for all things, and put no personal stake in it whatsoever – thus it would be extremely difficult for me to “take personally” any comment on its shortcomings.
I bear no malice whatsoever to any who would question my eschatological views, and all may rest assured I will not become defensive re: the subject as I have little if anything invested in it.
(that would be as opposed to the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, and Christian freedom from the Mosaic law ie the Gospel of Grace – all of which I take very seriously)
Again, I have nothing invested in a discussion of eschatology, so if I am asking to be “spoon fed” it is because I can think of better uses of my time than chasing these things down. I am here solely out of my deep respect for yourself and Sheila and your apparent concerns re: my views. If you have points to make or questions to ask, do so, and I will do my able best to interact faithfully, but I am not going to make a quest out of seeking definitions that could just as easily be posted on this section of the board, or at least linked from here.
I agree the lamps need lighting; how I have chosen to use my oil is in studying the Trinity, Deity of Christ, and the Theology of the Cross – not in eschatology.
I will not seek out the source on Israel on the present site – if there weren’t so much to wade through I would, but the sheer amount of material makes it time consuming. If you would like to provide me the link I would be more than happy to review it, but I already did my heavy-lifting in just finding this “Sorting out end-time theologies” section of the boards for us to have this conversation on.
Again, I’m here because of respect for your concern, but asking me to do these things is like shouting from shore to a drowning man saying “I think you’re in a bad way – maybe you should swim to land!” I appreciate the concern and I respect you, but there comes a time when – if you believe someone is in danger (as it would seem you think of me) – one must humble themselves enough to get a little wet and not accuse the drowning of wanting to be “spoon fed”.
-Tom
Tom, You past stated a need to move over here to this forum. You took the time and did the work. I would suggest seeing my Oct 6th comment to Chuck on the Oct 5th Praying for the Peace of Jerusalem blog.
Further, I do not have other words coming for mentioning the esssential nature of having an eschatology along with a Christology. A Christology does not develop an adequate understanding of the Church, the Nature of man, and many other developed doctrines of the canon.
Eschatotogy has some themes which are obvious and researched for present relevance, not simply speculative impressions, opinions, or details. As written, there must be some speculative assertion of what God is now doing as to his own covenant promises, and Plans for Redemption, as fit with the four statements already made to which you agreed.
So, where do we go from here. Your bonds may be more important to edification by this present exploration than your mentioned boundaries. Moving away from something when you have past exhibited endless patience with those asserting the law of Moses is the only conclusion which remains regarding statements on time and patience.
It is incongruous to assert such a posture when not in the past, asserting such over less grevous matters. If our Father will “bless those who bless thee” this must extend into our present regardful discussions.
Why eschatology? Like Christology, it is of Jesus, of his identity, purpose, Lordship [Kingdom} and regard. It has to do with His intentions and Plans as the Redemptive Lord: not just in the future, for all people when finishing out promises and intentions also not found of this present “Age of the Gentiles” inadequate attempts at self and world government, as to failing its own actualization of nonabiding ideology, and Jesus’ future promised establishments of restoration regarding Israel, righteousness, and an augmented presence from Jerusalem for a totally rearranged world (per Daniel and others, who engage tracing out the consequences of human history with and without Christ, where Jerusalem is intended to become a “praise in the earth”).
That resulting new conditions of human living are established from Jerusalem with Christ present there is plain enough in the great body of eschatological scripture; for a future period of world government influence as is foreshadowed by the present Christian spiritual Kingdom affiliation for when the “kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdom of God and his Christ”.
Daniel, Zech., Isaiah, and the Revelation all allude to such a time not yet seen on the earth being about a future Messianic hope given to David and Moses as a promise for their chosen Nation, by covenants promises as such.
What is it that ensures that the often strangely associated words of the Prophets of Old with Israel and Jerusalem regarding David and Moses’ Promised One’s restorative establishments are so important that Jesus spent time remarking on these realities over Jerusalem, as to its devotional Center’s then coming desolation, and His family of origin’s distant future refounded there again in Him–all as is stated before His Passion and resurrection? Why bother if a once accomplished finished work grants a relationship of faith in Him within human history was to be soon established once and for all time, and for the eternal consequence of many, and if so at the expense of then present Jerusalem’s religious system and/or political preoccupations?
Why was His final historical “discourse” one which, like his teachings on discipleship, would linger on in conscience throughout humankind’s life cycles for thousands of years, and what does this have to do with a sometimes mentioned Millennial time period’s establishments, and its suppositions, or lack of substance for such, if so?
Tom agreed in #62 to four important future realities or themes being carried from the Bible into the present and future, where so. After Pentecost, hearing the commotion, the Nation asked for an explanation. What is happening here, what does it mean, why the commotion? What the close Apostles understood of their accepted Messiah rejected by the Sanhedrin is that the Nation missed the visitation and Resurrected and Ascended Jesus who had an obligation to yet complete significant promises given by their Tenach Prophets [as are founded in most of them anyway, especially as to a future timeline for His Kingdom, as is Promised Israel in Daniel, Ezkl., Isaiah and Zech.] as to David’s and Moses’ statements about Him coming into Israel, being its consolation, restoring the promised Kingdom eternally as set on the throne of David with its Temple dedicated to Israel and the Nations healing [in sum, Acts 3:21].
These statements were understood as spoken by his disciples, being Jews, and are mentioned to and of Jesus by them: in Mt. 24:3, later in Acts 1:6, just as he was leaving the earth, and in 3:21 as to Peter’s explanation after the commotion of the Holy Spirit’s coming perplexed the gathering Temple crowds [see also 2:38 & 39]; as seen as mindful of his closest followers in the very questions they took on regarding their Nation and its past received Davidic Kingdom etermal establishment promises as were put to Jesus just before the Mt. of Olives discourse made over Jerusalem, and as found contemplated too in some other places by Paul (2 Thsl. 2), John (primarily in the Revelation), and in Peter (as to the coming Day of the Lord which both judges and completes the results of ignoring or regarding the Word of God of the Messiah).
The Revelation to John, chapter 20 is a further contribution to Messianic expectation restoration ideals which Tom has called “figurative” as to its interpretation. This contains the passage along with Ezekiel’s, Isaiah’s, Daniel’s and Zechariah’s predictions which have granted literal substance to the expectations of a restored Kingdom of David’s throne in the Land of the People of the Book. There is activity there now, involving millions of dollars worth of resources, and thousands of dedicated Jewish hours of labor and preparation for a renewed Temple national religious center, as accompanied with a renewed Messianic expectancy.
If God promised it, Old instruction believers hold, He must do it to be faithful to his own integrity–if God exists. The proof of reengaging a national dedication to atonement, feasts, and observances does request of God that He reengage the nation (Mt. 13:52).
Will there be a “Millennial reign”, per Daniel’s, Isaiah’s, and Zechariah’s predictions of the promised Messiah Ben David, and, if so, will the Return take place before or after that period is in focus for our related discussions here? The view of Amillennialism is that there will be no such earthly reign of the Messiah. The view of Premillennialism is that this is the Promise for Israel’s restoration which the disciples were keenly aware of, asked Jesus about, continued to expect, and that all of their Tenach (Old Testament) Prophecy authors of Old predicted and promised such a reign in order for God to be faithful to past covenant promises He had made to his Nation and family of origin. since the restoration of the Nation of the Land of the People of the Book, as promised as to making the nation “in a day”, and as to the many years Bible scholars have stated that this is a miraculous fulfillment of the beginning of restorative promises in the Prophets of Old how can an earthly reign of the Christ be of God’s own Word?
This then was an unveiled mystery remaining as stated of the visitation, first completed spiritually by Jesus from Jerusalem when he first came to earth, by the Holy Spirit sent as promised, of the establishment of faith in the Nation and Nations, and so through the three year ministry of Jesus sent to the Nation–such was further expanded by the Mystery Spiritual Kingdom going into the Nations. Yet we still have the facts of the disciples’ expectations, God’s promises for completion spoken by the Prophets, and Jesus responses to these being declared not of their then completion, but of their future establishments, hope and judgment.
He would return, as he left, and as Zechariah stated he would, by epipheneia, parousia, glory and splendor in the clouds. His feet would land on the Mount of Olives to carry out the specifics of a literal kingdom promised Israel, after the long period of completion of the full number of Gentiles into his fold. Daniel, Ezkl., Jeremiah, Amos, Micah, Haggi, Zech., Isaiah, etc. all had elements of such a hope’s literal promises not completed by Jesus spiritual establishments due to his first visit.
The disciples questions, answers received, and statements made to the chosen Nation after three years with Him remained for us to read about restoration of the Kingdom to Israel, the Return, and the fulfillment of Prophetic Promises spoken by the Prophets of Old. So, why the anticipated New Testament disciples expectation of “restoration or renewal?” What did it mean then and now later as to Jesus’ given answers, and why do we care if simply being saved, adopted, and set free to newness of life in the present is the primary experience for a changed and meaningful life? Simply put, because God is an allpowerful and allknowing person of his Word, or he is not God.
I asked Tom how he regarded John’s Revelation of Jesus Christ, chapter 20. He stated that it was viewed as figurative, so, this scripture is the source where the term Millennium appears as is most often correlated in eschatology with restoration promises of the Tenach given to Israel. Vs. 4 mentions thrones….[and] reigned. I Cor 6:2-4 associates this with deligated rule for non eternal judgment. There is a shared rule, which aligns with Isaiah’s Messianic hopes and specifics, over time. Believers martyred by the Beast of 13:7 & 15 are pictured as well in this mention. 20:5 “did not live again” seems to not indicate that the resurrection of the dead stated in the passage did not include all people of all time, and hence, can be associated with Dan. 12:2, and John 5:29. As with I Cor 15: 23 & 52 there is a first resurrection of dead (before a thousand years of Christ’s reign), which completes promises made to Israel in the Prophets of Old restoration passages over which his disciples held long term questions and answers given in their racial and chosen nation hearts.
There is later in the passage a final resurrection after the 1000 year’s is finished (vv. 11-13). 20:6 looks forward to a life with the Messiah after v. 5’s first resurrection. This resurrection is given for believers, not unbelievers, unto purpose for service and life, not coming eternal judgment. There is mention too of the second death of torment finally for unbelievers by extension of the passage past the mentioned time. Other events are the binding of the satan for the time period, later to be released to deceive the nations once more, as throughout past world Gentile Age history. The nations regather to oppose Christ and Israel once more, as in so the past prior to the mentioned “first resurrection” (16: 13, 14; 19:19, 20). 20:10 then involves a final rebellion addressed by God (vv 8, 9), after which the satan, being God’s enemy, is forever judged with the beast and the false prophet (of the Revelation, of earth, of 19:20). This is consistent with Is. 66:22-24, and Gospel reference Mk. 9:48).
In listening to Tom’s blanket interpretation in part, I would agree that 20:11’a language is literarily descriptive and figurative, but so to state a literal action in time (see also 2 Pet. 3:10-13). This then is not speculative in content but quite literal in action and result. Then we have the final judgment of the dead who are raised. Now both believers and unbelivers stand before the “Great White” throne,v. 12, unlike those raised in vs. 5 to conduct the rule of governmental reign’s temporal and orderly on the planet judgement.
To rule with Christ, Revl. 1:6; 2:26, 27; and 5:10 can be said to associate with the first resurrection, as can martyrdom and Christ’s subsequent appointments for the time period of fulfilling the Kingdom promises past made to Israel. Why a Millennium at all? What’s the point after the finished work of the Cross? We go back to the Prophets and Promises of Old to Israel, Judah and Ephriam, about establishments in earth’s Jerusalem for such details bringing righteousness over all the earth. Consider that in our lives we have not known this externally, but inwardly. Whereas the Revelation is covering a long period of time with the framed supernatural details of a time period for completing the promises of Old precluding and coming after this allusion.
So, when we see “all these things taking place,” as was spoken on the Mt. of Olives over Jerusalem, in this present “evil age” what are disciples living at that time supposed to do? Certainly this was long after the openers of the questions given by mentioned disciples lifetimes passed, and long after the Messiah of Daniel’s timeline was “cut off”, then resurrected and ascended with the promise to Return. These may be speculative or figurative passages when connected to the early Revelation 20 verses in one sense, but are literally stated in other Biblical passages and in that passage as well in specific information extended along into our time and season on the earth. Today we have weapons of mass destruction, a culture of death in a religion of a false prophet widely followed, and foreboding environmental concerns. In the discourse on the Mount of Olives we have Jesus dark negative predictions, and the promise of his Return as the light at the end of a tunnel.
So, I would then ask Tom, why would the present renewal of Israel be linked to promises made of David and Moses regarding the People of the Book in the Land? If Revl. 20:4-6 is involved in these incomplete promises, how is this first resurrection a positive development, as tying into Romans 11s promise of regrafting in for “all Israel”, and Jesus mention of a reestablished Jerusalem, as a national center, for the statement of the nation as to the blessing of the Return, and as to Israel’s salvation (in other passages after the full number of Gentiles come in).
Why are a first and second resurrection of the dead around a time period of rule and reign of thrones literally and not symbolically given of two separately identified groups? The identical term for a physical resurrection, ezesan, appears in both the first and second reference, as such most literal and not figurative, where the first is established as precedent for the second.
Jesus taught about the present apostacy of our faith, and its challenges before his return begging for his promised time of restoration to Israel to come as by Zechariah’s descriptors of literal circumstances for a righteous Kingdom promised rule, through supernatural intervention in history, regarding an Israel that would not exist for almost two thousand years. We see through a glass partially indeed, but what is promised indeed as to the Messiah Ben David for Israel after its present regathering? And what is promised the whole people of God prior to the Great white throne of judgment? How are these times unique, and what is expected of us in regard to our faith, and Israel as to the Plan Jesus ushered in for Redemption, the fulfillment of all righteousness, and the Promise and hope of the Return? The nature of the visitation and Passion, and the nature of the Return are to carry out the promises made to those who lived by faith in times past and present.
In my above developed thought, the eighth paragraph up from the bottom, just after half way, should read….
Believers martyred by the Beast of 13:7 & 15 are pictured as well in this mention. 20:5 “did not live again” seems to indicate that the resurrection of the dead stated in the passage did not include all people of all time, and hence, can be associated with Dan. 12:2, and John 5:29 as being about a particular people set in time.
Instead it erroneously stated:
“Believers martyred by the Beast of 13:7 & 15 are pictured as well in this mention. 20:5 ‘did not live again’ seems to not indicate that the resurrection of the dead stated in the passage did not include all people of all time, and hence, can be associated with Dan. 12:2, and John 5:29′, when the opposite meaning was intended.
Me, being the one who suggested leaving out lengthy Bible verses, has been forced to include them as necessary for you to follow my end time views more specifically.
post #68
Jabez–“What is important to understanding Scriptural reference is to inquire what is the Redeemer’s own meaning and definition? Recall that the Church mistakenly thought for the most part, up until the restoration of Israel, that it was the true “Israel of God,” due to assumptive default. Then Israel began to regather.”
Also–“And a careful reading of Romans 9-11 says something different entirely than the church=the Israel of God.”
Not ever holding the above stated view, and probably because I didn’t learn any of those from others, I never mistook the Church for replacing Israel. So, that point is decided.
Concerning Romans and Israel, I read it like this: 1.) Esau was birthed at the same time, actually before, Jacob (Israel), yet is not considered the decendent of the “promise” as is Jacob. So, “not all who are of Israel, are “of” the promise. 2.) Not “many” who were later of Israel, i.e., in Messiah’s first advent, accepted the “promised seed of the woman” as Savior and Redeemer, so, too, they are not “of Israel”, having rejected Him. 3.) That they were then, deliberately, though, only for a time, “blinded” in part until “the fulness of the Gentiles has come in”, I absolutely agree.
That’s my understanding of it.
I’ll say this, up front, I don’t adhere to a “parenthetical division” of the 70 weeks of Daniel. I do accept the “times of the Gentiles” as having been in process for over 2000 years now. That there will come a time when the Lord says, “times up”, I agree with. That the time is at hand is demonstrated by His own words and those given to the OT prophets.
Israel being gathered as a nation once more is the fulfillment of many prophesies as outlined in the OT, of which the book of Revelation is saturated with. The letters pronounced and stated as given to the seven churches in Asia were for those of that time period, not for the Church throughout all ages. (While the message is, of course, still pertinent) I believe it follows the mercy of the Lord in warning the believers of the destruction to come on Jerusalem in 70ad, and that they were to head His warning as “soon to come to pass”.
Most say, the NT was written after the destruction of Jerusalem. I think otherwise. There is not even a hint of it anywhere in the NT scriptures that it was already destroyed. John leads up to that in the Revelation given to the Lord and passed to him to quickly get the word out. Judgement was coming and “soon”. I think it answers to these words spoken by the Lord.
Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against [their] parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Luk 21:6 [As for] these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass? {The Apostles are asking about the destruction of the beautiful stones being thrown down.}
Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. {There were no claims in Israel of a Messiah until “after” His advent}
Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things MUST FIRST come to pass; but THE END [is] not by and by.
The Apostles were still confused, thinking the destruction of Jerusalem was the end of the age as spoken of by the prophets, the Lord corrects them by differentiating between the two. He will later put off their idea of having the Kingdom restored to Israel at “THIS TIME”.
Then, the following verses outline THOSE DAYS. Yet future.
Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Then back to their “immediate” concerns:
Luk 21:12 BUT, BEFORE ALL THESE, {the true signs of the end of days. as outlined in 10-11} they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle [it] therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name’s sake.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls. {The warnings as given by the mercy of the Lord to John in Revelation}
The Lord then elaborates on the things which they should focus on as their immediate concerns:
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, AND SHALL BE LED AWAY CAPTIVE INTO ALL NATIONS: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the TIMES OF THE GENTILES SHALL BE FULFILLED.
I see no other way to read it, other than, the Jews were scattered for close to 2000 years, but, ARE PRESENTLY being “regathered as a nation”. So, the times of the Gentiles treading down Jerusalem are coming to an end and we can pick up with end time prophesies from there.
The Lord then gives to them, and more specifically to us, the preceeding to the END OF DAYS:
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; {The Star of Bethlehem at His birth? More like it to come?} and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Any uncircumsized heathen who would enter the Holy of Holies would be an abomination and would defile it; especially when they were coming to make it completely “desolate”, “with no stone left unturned”. Of course, that is a major area of disputation which I don’t think I can handle being deverted by right now.
I understand this phrase as profound, although I don’t know who said it, it’s been attributed to Chuck Missler: “The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, and the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.”
I hope that helps. I’ve not even begun to read much further than that post, if I’ve even answered most in it, so, please be patient with me.
Can we take it a little slower, please, as it’s already moved beyond my being able to join what’s been said already.
So much for no chapter long posts.
Tom wrote:
” Is there a time that the kingdom will be restored to Israel?
Israel who? Israel the man Jacob? Israel the literal physical descendants of that man? Israel the political nation? Israel who?
When is that time?
Depends on what you define “Israel” to be, doesn’t it?
Has the Church replaced Israel?
Israel who? Israel the man Jacob? Israel the literal physical descendants of that man? Israel the political nation? Israel who?
What do you mean by replaced?
When is the Day of the YHWH/YHWH’s day?
The day of the Lord as found in the NT is the first day of the week; ie, Sunday.
Is Messiah going to rule from Jerusalem?
What Jerusalem? A geographical plot of land in Palestine? A spiritual reality?
Again, I can’t answer these questions without you defining your terms.”
Very coy!
The easy way is to tell us who you think Israel is. The apostles asked the question. What do you think that they meant? Just tell us who you think Israel is and how and when their kingdom is restored.
The “day of the Lord” is never used in the Bible to mean the first day of the week. It is obvious from what John says that he was in the spirit on the “day of the Lord” as everything he speaks about is about this day of all darkness and no light in it.
Sheila and Tom,
Thank you for working on expressing your own response to our challenges here on end time doctrinal viewpoints carrying into outlooks on Jesus as Redeemer. In this pursuit we embraced the boundary of talking about a Millennium as to considerations such a Plan may make about a literal reign of Christ after the Age of the Gentiles is usurped in an Israel accepting the sudden Return of their Messiah. Like with the study of photography, there seem to be endless nuances of applied theory for interpretation for what is possible, which indeed affect the outcomes of all the variables involved in getting a proper picture; this seems especially so as to the challenges of the testy season on earth at hand of keeping faith in the redeemer, as well as the relationship with the present day placement challenges of the State of Israel regarding the inevitability of such a pursuit (Acts 3:21, Mt 13:52, Acts 1:6, etc.).
Lovers of Israel, per God’s admonition to be so, naturally will be watching events there for indicators of promised holiness interactions in those regathered, through a reestablishing of FAITH in the People there, and by indicators of THE details of past promises made to Israel, Judah, and Ephriam in the Tenach (coming to fruition). Watched too as to these end times are indicators of the level of conflict we find recorded over the People of the Book in the Land as representing God’s own establishments in the earth for their own expectancy of Him. Such are rampant in the Prophets and the Revelation: over such establishment challenges, covenants matters, and issues of righteousness, holiness, and fidelity of changes in related souls over the keeping of God’s Word.
Your fifth paragraph on Romans and Israel is quite interesting in regards of these considerations, above, and the named four agreement statements Tom accepted as important to any doctrine of eschatology being of the appointed Christ in considering a reign of His making being possible on earth from a redeemed Jerusalem, according to Promises of Old and New framing. For the Nation the logical steps to such possibility will include a presently compelled pursuit of a National Devotional Center, with placement on Mt. Moriah.
Esau’s character was never formed by direct challenge and encounter with God, as was Israel’s, but both came to be in the first place because of Isaac, their shared natural father. As we all know of the Promise mentioned given of a testing of faith’s encounter for Isaac, and later to the struggle of the transition from Jacob to gaining the identity of Israel, was not extended to his brother–partly due to Jacob’s tutored deception and partly due to Esau’s disinterest in struggle to persist with encountering God. We see this today in the kind of passivity and active death culture of Islam proclaimed as sacred among the descendants of Esau, who seem to want the Promise of relationship with God without the personal struggle involved in its individual formation. Their “Prophet” was he of the decapitating sword, which grants no permission for the heart, head, and hands of its devotees to become of a unified service to God as being Father God. WE have warring destroying Allah, not Father God asserting its negations.
If one cannot struggle with God and yield to his Promise of internal law and liberty directly, one may substitute such a possibility with another way. Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy set the stage for the Visitation to the Nation, and the Return. One who struggles with God perseveres with Him. Soon the Nation will struggle with the very nature of Messiahship, and the very purpose of establishing a National Religious Center on tranditonal heritage ground where such action may embrace scheming and deception for such an inception. In the end, such will encounter God through the Return’s better establishments and pure intentions along the Nation’s present path toward believing the Promises God has made are completed in Jesus the true Messiah
.
The Covenant promises given to Abraham’s seed were indeed tested as proven by an encounter with God regarding sacrificing the very possibility of the Promises made to him, and that carried forth by the survivor of this encounter (by Jacob/Israel) also were engaged unwhittingly for the Land and People who would become the chosen Nation for the Visitation and Return of Jesus.
What external conditions in Israel, according to Zech., Compels the Return? What internal conditions of Israel, according to Jeremiah begat the Return? What, according to Isaiah, is established by the Return? Trusting God, with struggle for historical faith transactions which persevere in enlarging hearts toward the consent of obedience for an intimate yielding to the Bridegroom’s promise of protection and provision of His Own Bride are akin to the continuing Promises of Abraham.
As to a division of the timeline of Daniel, we have to look at the history of the People of the Book away from the Land, and its final satanic attack on their very existence. We have to acknowledge that Messiah was cut off, as Daniel stated which resulted in a lack of protection for the People and Messiah was jealous for his People to Return to the place where He was to establish His Righteous rule in the earth, set by the Word of the Prophets of Old, and as it is in heaven.
Remember, the Jews coming back to the land are not all there is to the regathering of Israel. They are only the beginning. The prophetic statements about gathering Israel from all the nations that they have been scattered, is still in it’s infancy.
I think that it would be good for us to purposefully start to delineate between Israel and Judah so as to minimize confusion and sloppy understandings of scriptural doctrine. Though it is appropriate to use the term “Israel” as inclusive of the Jews, it is problematic to use “Jews” as inclusive or a replacement of “Israel”.
Jeremiah 16
14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.
17 For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes.
18 And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Even though the regathering to the land has begun, there are many Israelites to be gathered. This regathering of Israel was prophesied before Judah was scattered. Who knows how long it will take for this to take place. It may be quite suddenly. It may be that the renewed interest in keeping Torah is due to this prophecy being fulfilled. The ones that can receive it just may be the now unidentifiable, scattered Israelites returning to obedience to YHWH. Even some gentiles will realize that they have inherited lies from their fathers (maybe church fathers).
Deuteronomy 30
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
There is to be a return to Torah among the scattered “Israelites” that precedes the regathering to the land. Not very many people could foresee the state of Israel being born in a day before it was thrust into re-existance. It could be that not many will understand YHWH’s working in His calling of the northern tribes (that are indistinguishable from the gentiles in which they have been assimilated) back to Torah. The Church may have more than replacement theology and antisemitism to repent of. Persecution/slander toward Torah observant believers may be just as much fighting against the seed of Abraham as the previous sins.
At any rate we should be looking for “Israel” and not just the “Jews” to be somehow returning to the land. It may be possible that the “rapture”, to use a common word, is the actual gathering and returning to the land in miraculous fashion. If not, then we should be expecting an interesting immigration to somehow be facilitated. The state of Israel is not accepting non-Jews at this time, so the northern tribes are unable to return. What if this policy is radically changeg? Now that would interesting…but not quite as interesting as flying through the air with “ten thousands of His saints.”
Shalom
Next time I’ll just site the verses and all can read them for themselves. I thought it might help to break it down just to get the basics of my understanding of things founded for you. Sorry for burdening you with them.
I’ll have to print what’s been discussed so far and write out my responses by hand, when possible, before being able to post them. I won’t be able to join for some days because of recent treatments. I realize I’ll be that much further behind, but, it can’t be helped.
I apologize if I offended you, Bo. As a Gentile, you sometimes make me feel like chopped liver. Let’s begin again from here. OK?
🙂
No offense taken. You may not be as gentile as you suppose. I may be more gentile than I suppose. YHWH grants mercy and grace to those that humble themselves before Him. It is an interesting time we live in. Knowledge is increasing. May we be able to accept the truth at all costs. YHWH’s time table is what counts. None of us know what that is for sure, so it behooves us to press in and be good and faithful servants.
Shalom
Tom, I attempted a scriptural defintion of Israel, as Paul refers to it, it my stated cited reference respose to Chuck. This speaks too of the Nation to which Jesus visited, and proclaimed his Kingdom and Kingship, and the words of Daniel over the Temple Mount from the Mt. of Olives. Of course, the suffering Servant who did not love his life unto death was among the Land of the People of the Book at that juncture, and spoke of Returning there after long events, and the fulcrum of possiblity, as is cited by Sheila, Lk. 21:24.
When in Israel in 1971 and ’72, I had placed a car for surveying the Land on a ship from Italy, after driving through Europe. I met other Jews and new believers on that ship, who I bumped into on the Temple Mount weeks later, once going our ways; this was coincidentally on the west side of the Dome of the Rock. We immediately agreed to lay our hands on it and ask the Father to bring it down and replace it with a house to his Name. Why this spontaneously happened, I had little idea, for I was just exploring my own roots after conversion earlier that summer in a campground in Colorado. I had seen miracles at the witness of those of the so-called Jesus movement coming into the public national forest campground where I had stayed a few weeks, and t=one spoke of the fulfillment of Prophecy in Israel, which brake thorugh my spiritual complacency enough to be challenged to read John and Matthew, and inquire of Jesus, “if you are really real”. He immediatley touched my heart with his invisible hand of affirmation, creating great wonder and fear in me, and convincing me of He, Messiah.
Cat Stevens “Morning Has Broken” was playing through the cafes of the streets of the Old City. This was prior to the 1973 war, with the elelation of the 1967 war’s uniting of Jerusalem under Israel warmly in both then youth Jewish and Jesus culture’s rejoicing. We exepected the Messiah to appear or reappear any moment. But those who held Jesusalem had many tests ahead over their own sovreignty.The Russan Jews were just beginning repatriation in Israel, and the Ethiopian airlifts had not begun. Most of the recent returnees were from Middle Eastern, then old European lands. It was a nation of Sabres (the new prickly pear catus like tenacious Isreali born generation), established Zionists of the former Century and beyond, and pocket old word commnities.
These did not trust those who once commanded the Land, with many changes of the guard so to speak, for most in recent memory had made it difficult for the Return of the People of the Book to Happen. Britian in particular had broken its declared promises to the Jews. Wars too had displaced them even further from the notion of “next year in Jerusalem”.
After Saul, and David, Soloman was king for four years, then built the Temple to the Lord, his “footstool” on the planet, and center of presence at that time. He taxed heavily, and like with the US Capitol building, used some slave labor, and tribal rotational labor for considerable development all over the Land. He ended up lighting incense to foreign Gods, in spite of the “glory of the Lord” manifesting at its dedication.
Judah was blessed with more good kings than of the history of Israel, and more cunning treachery. Who would bear the throne of David forever with justice, mercy, and lovingkindness?
David, who had installed Moses’ ark of the covenant in a tent on Mt. Zion (ps. 24; 2 Saml. 6; cf Numb. 4:15 on the death of Uzzah). He honored the placement of the Lord in the chosen settlement capitol city with a psalm (I Chron. 14, Pslm 9, 105, 106) and by establishing a ministry of ongoing Levitical singers under Asaph (I Chron. 25; 16: 5, 37, 42). David helped organize 38,000 Levites under hereditary leaders, making them doorkeepers, teasurers, area judges (ibid 23-26). This was the foundation for expansion, alliances, and infrastructure latter embellished and consolidated under his son, Soloman, who would build a house for the Ark of the Lord.
A dynasty was established to culminate in the incarnation of covenants promised David of God’s Son (II Saml. 7:13, 14). About half of the Psalms are attributed to David, and many of these allude to the coming Lord. Ps. 22 is most famous as to its considered fulfillments of our Suffering Servant Lord. And, as Daniel said too, Messiah was “cut off”, from David’s Land of the Living.
Daniel said much much more about His people and the time of the end than this. The purchased threshing floor on Mt. Moriah, just No. of then Jeusalem, became identified as David’s placemnt of sacrice and for the very House of God (I Chron. 22, Pslm 30). This can only be understood in the crudible of the time and place as most significant of some kind of permanancy of righteous cultic devotion to the One God. David received in writing from the Ruach Ha Kodesh (the Holy spirit) the plans for the Temples construction (28: 12, 19). Promises were given about his throne stretching into timeless intention, as had Moses also mentioned the coming One.
The Kings of Israel then carried the legacy of expectancy from a divine source of Promise. How then would a Millennium regardful of the reestablished Israel bear on the promises given both David, and Moses (and many Prophets) about the coming One? Do you know from the Prophets of Old what these are? Of current consideration in the hearts of those in Israel working to establish a National Religious Heritage Center on the Mount–a Temple in many organizations’ focus–is a rediscovery of their own identity. Do you find that identity linked to the Teturn? Is there more than symbolism established from a Premillenial outlook of hope and expectation about the Placement in the Land of the People of the Book? What do the Prophets say is to come to pass (Acts 3:21)?
mY FIRST PARAGRAPH brake=broke. Other typos:
placemnt of sacrice+placement of sacrifice.
crudibel= crucible. Teturn=return.
Jabez,
I’ve just fallen into an incredibly busy time at work, so I will be slow and short in my responses for now.
From what you’ve written so far, I can see we start from two majorly different assumptions in this discussion.
You believe that there are many “incomplete promises” re: OT prophesy and NT statements.
I believe everything has been completed in Christ, and that all that remains is the sound of the trumpet calling His saints to meet Him in the air.
Basically that seems to be what this discussion and our difference of eschatological opinion comes down to.
I emphatically DO NOT believe in a restored Jerusalem temple with renewed sacrifices.
All that said, your questions strike me more as something that one would find in the “review questions” section of a textbook, and each one could potentially be an essay prompt by itself – so for this reason I find it hard to answer all of them. If you would like, I will start with the first ones and work my way down, but it will not be a quick process.
Tom,
You wrote:
“I believe everything has been completed in Christ, and that all that remains is the sound of the trumpet calling His saints to meet Him in the air.”
Now I see why we get nowhere in our dialogues. Do you have a passage that says that “everything is completed in Christ”? Why did Paul agree to participate in the temple statutes if it was already completed? Do you think that the gospel being preached to the nations was completed in Messiah? Could He have returned 20 days after He ascended?
Shalom
Tom, the writer of Hebrews stated that the Old was “being replaced” by the New. Jesus spoke of mutual consideration (Mt. 13:52). Bo has been accurate in carrying forth the fulfillments of the Messiah based on the appointments of the Hebrew calendar. Jesus was sent to the House of Israel, the Apostles to the Nations. Later Isaian awaits much from Jesus, as does Zech 8-14, the latter part of Ezkl., etc.
It is a convenience to only accept the interpretations of the Gospels prophetic citings as completed, for, it leaves no personal responsibility to examine other outstanding promises given of God in other covenants. I respected your earlier statements on having boundaries on searching out a scriptural New Covenatn and Old Covenant harmony of definitions, and your stated dismissal of doing the work. I can accept your statement of a careful interaction on the questions I raised. I trust there is no smugness in assumptions you have made.
As for me and my household we trust that once God promises something to someone somewhere sometime, it will happen. Israel, now reformed, will pesevere with pursuit of God, according to their scaled eyes understanding of his reuirements and blessings and curses. There is a considerable remnant of Israeli born citizens now coming to accept Yeshua as Messiah, who are working among the People of the Book in the Land.
We must all take literally the words of Jesus spoken from the Mt. of Olives, and his respect of the prophets. I challenged you, Tom, to read Acts 3:21 in more than one translation as a prerequiste which you accepted in order to examine whether or not an earthly reign from Jerusalem is promised by David, Moses, and the Prophets, prior to the judgement sear of Christ coming to pass. This is the crux of exploration here, and is a matter, I assert, of the God of scripture keeping his own detailed promises.
I look forward to our interchange, in Christ.
Jabez,
Reading these things, I remain unconvinced that the promise of an earthly reign of Christ is found in scripture. I will briefly lay out my reasons here.
1) I find absolutely no evidence in the New Testament for Jesus returning to reign on this earth. Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world – John 18:36
2) I have a problem with reading 1000 in Rev 20 literally because if we do this then the 144,000 must be read literally as well to be consistent.
3) I find no New Testament evidence whatsoever for a reconstruction of the temple, a reinstitution of sacrifices, or a regathering of all nations to the Palestinian geographical location.
4) I do not consider the newspaper an authoritative commentary on Biblical interpretation. Just because events in the political state of Israel may currently line up with a certain interpretation of the inspired word does not then necessarily validate that interpretation.
5) I consider God’s Old Testament promises to Israel to have been fulfilled in Christ, who is the true Israel (Isaiah 49:3 and following; Isaiah 42:6 and surrounding; Matt 2:15, cf Hosea 1:11) and the obedient Son and Servant that national Israel was called to be but never could
If I need to clarify anything, let me know. I enjoy reading your opinion on all of this, even if my current capacity to interact is limited,
Tom
Tom, Reading what things? Peter to his nation? Promises stated to Israel in the Prophets of old by Coventants related statements? What the God promised Moses and David? What? Can you be more descriptive and correlative of the requests made of you, item by item? We have to have some kind of template of subjects raised regarding a response. As it is, it does not pick up with the requests made, item by item. So, let’s start with what Peter stated, in Acts 3:21, what does it say to you? And what did Peter say as a paraphrase in that passage? To whom was it stated as New Covenant truth? Why, and to what end?
If we can begin here, our similarities and differences may become more apparent regarding establishing a communication feedback loop, source to source, and reference by reference.
I know what you have stated, which is the classical amillennial view, should I have the opportunity then, after the above, to break down the assumption as to specifics not yet completed from the Promises of the Tenach, or would getting that specific in my responses then bring up this statement each and every instance of unfulfilled prophecy as yet by the initial work of the Messiah?
In other words, instead of stating that you see no need for an earthly rule, especially so as a literal number of years, and your reasons, can we proceed by classifying and mentioning each of the four areas of discussion you agreed to, and then make specific references and specific responses to these?
I pick up that you have no empathy for a scenario of a literal millennial time period reign prior to the judgment of Christ, but, setting aside that concern, I would like to proceed with scriptural statements past given the family of David, and the Kings of Israel and Judah, when united and when not, and state these, then you could inform me how these were completed and do not require an earthly reign prior to the judgment of the Messiah. Is this a reasonable request as to process and proceedure?
Another day of rest maybe. I’m sneaking this in, though.
Mat 13:52 And he said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house, who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old.”
The treatment I’ve had is for the collapsed vertebre in my neck and back. It’s not so serious, just very painful. The relief it offers for extended periods of time is greatly appreciated. Shortly, this is what it entails and I highly recommend it to others with similar vetebre injuries. The doctor first injects pain medication together with a mucle relaxer in a series of eight places. Then these are followed by another series of eight injections of cortizon and something else. (? anti-inflamatory) Then eight metal prons (probes?) are inserted where the injections were, I’m still a little fuzzy, they are pushed in and I’m grounded out while radio frequencies are passed between them. It leaves me very bruised and absolutely wobbily and I’m not allowed to sit up, or, to lift anything or move about for days on end. It seems like forever, to me, anyway. I asked him, jokingly, if I could pick the radio station myself. No can do, but, he laughed really hard. 😮
Jabez,
All of the above.
Which requests? The essay questions? (such as this one from post #71: After Pentecost, hearing the commotion, the Nation asked for an explanation. What is happening here, what does it mean, why the commotion?
Please, it is super hard to know what is a question you want an answer to and what is rhetorical in your posts above. In some of them it is also hard to know what kind of answer you are looking for, since like an essay question approaches to it can reasonably vary. If you would number your specific, non-rhetorical questions to me in future posts so they are unmistakable and clear, that would help.
It says Christ will be returning to restore all things, i.e. paradise lost becomes paradise regained in the New Heavens and the New Earth – this one is rolled up like a garment and cast off.
I don’t know what paraphrase you mean.
It was spoken to the Jews.
To the end of preaching Christ crucified, for the sins of the world.
Knock yourself out. I understand that there are still things to do that will be fulfilled in Christ at His return, so no, I won’t pull out my check list and say “everything has a check but the end of the world”.
That’ll work.
None whatsoever – no clear evidence outside of Rev 20 points to that being the case.
That sounds fantastic and, dare I say, fun!
Tom,
Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Who is Israel above? What did the apostles mean when they asked? Israel is Israel…all 12 tribes. They new the promises in scripture of the regathering in the last days when YHWH’s chosen would return to obedience to YHWH with all their hearts. (Deut. 30:1-6)
Messiah did not tell them that this restored kingdom to Israel would not happen. He did not say that the plan had changed and that the 12 tribes of Israel would not be regathered. He said that it was not for them to know the timing of things that YHWH retained for Himself.
I’m not sure that you know this, but the Jews will not accept Y’Shua as messiah for the very doctrine you hold. The scriptures are all too obviously full or a physical reign of the Biblical Messiah. They look at Y’shua as a pretender because of this. We get a hint of this in the apostles question above. They are saying what about all those prophecies about a conquering, kingly Messiah. The Jews today say the same.
We have seen Messiah ben Joseph, but Messiah ben David is absent as of yet. Quite simply Y’shua Messiah has not fulfilled those prophecies…yet.
The new heavens and earth will have no curse. The millennial reign will. When is the interval of time the passage below will be operable?
Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Shalom
Tom,
When did this take place?
Ezekiel 11
14 And the word of the LORD came to me:
15 “Son of man, your brothers, even your brothers, your kinsmen, the whole house of Israel, all of them, are those of whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Go far from the LORD; to us this land is given for a possession.’
16 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: Though I removed them far off among the nations, and though I scattered them among the countries, yet I have been a sanctuary to them for a while in the countries where they have gone.’
17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’
Shalom
Tom,
Ezekiel 37
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
When was this fulfilled?
Shalom
Thanks to all of you for your prayers and good wishes! It means a great deal to me. I’ll have to take it slowly for some more days, but, I’ve prepared some inquiries that really stump me, and are important to help me understand the connection between Daniel and the Revelation given to John by our Lord. I started on some earlier, so, I’ll submit them, but, most are moot and unnecessary to bring up now. Please disregard any typos unless I’ve edited anything that may read “opposite” than what I’ve intended, I’ll let them go and all of you can do the same. I can read your intentions around them. Again, thanks for your prayers!
While Dr. Brown, for the most part, doesn’t see end time events as that important, I find anything and everything in the Bible of major interest to me. That it doesn’t effect our salvation unless we have to choose between who we will worship, I agree with. Our major focus should be on winning more souls for Christ, or, at the least, supporting those who do. I can’t go flitting about like I used to, so, I do what I can to support the “worker bees” and modern day true apostles. Still, I’m interested in sorting it out, as well as it can be understood. I think many times we don’t truly see things until they are right in our faces and we see them being played out before our eyes. While we can observe the major apostasy and modern moral standards that are more akin to Sodom and Gomorrah, we are to be found going about the Lord’s work to the very hour of His appearing. We are, too, to be able to give “meat in due season” concerning His soon return. The stronger of us holding up the weak in the Body with comfort and encouragement to press in.
Post # 76
Jabez- “due to Esau’s disinterest in struggle to persist with encountering God. We see this today in the kind of passivity and active death culture of Islam proclaimed as sacred among the descendants of Esau, who seem to want the Promise of relationship with God without the personal struggle involved in its individual formation. Their “Prophet” was he of the decapitating sword, which grants no permission for the heart, head, and hands of its devotees to become of a unified service to God as being Father God. WE have warring destroying Allah, not Father God asserting its negations.”
Your description of the path Esau chose to follow, culminating in the Muslims re-writing the Scriptures in order to insert Ishmael in place of Isaac concerning the test on Mt. Moriah as given to Abraham and never “struggling” to take hold of the “promise”, though, by birthright, it should have been his to claim is right to the heart of the matter. Esau, rather, chose to seek revenge and death to Jacob, causing Jacob to flee from Esau’s murderous rage. Jacob will never flee again and is poised to fully be named “Israel”. We see the culmination of Esau’s decendents “holding the old hatred forever.” That Israel is once more emcompassed by their enemies, kept in on every side, is further proof of the very imminent fulfillment of their supernatural deliverance as stated by the prophets. I see the deliverance as coming from a little help at first from an earthly source, i.e., another nation. The U.S., as I see it, is the only one at present that fits the bill. I don’t believe the naysayers that open their mouths to curse our nation, as Balaam was hired to do concerning Israel. The Lord has each nation in place and exactly where He wants them to be, doing exactly what He wants them to do. So, ultimately, when we are left with no strength of our own, our strength is the Lord. Some months ago we gave, only to Israel, our latest figher jets and information technology to defend themselves. To the tune of 400 billion, I’ll gladly finance that with taxes, no matter the Corporation reaping the profits! That our standing with Israel, and possibly being the nation to defend them, with our demise as the result, does not bother me in the least. Perhaps the Lord will have them alone and on their knees before they will cry out to Him, as He has proclaimed them a “stiff-necked” people from the beginning.
The Muslim decendents of Esau, which I attribute to Edom, Moab and more particularly to Idumea as stated by the Lord in “bathing His sword in heaven” first, and then coming from Edom with “clothes dyed in red”, as in Isa. 63, Isa. 34, Obadiah 1, Jer. 49:15-22 (They haven’t, yet, been destroyed as Sodom and Gomorrah were) , Eze. 25:12-14, (unless it speaks to Judas Maccabees as they have yet to be fully realized.) and like prophesies concerning them, are now known as radical Muslims who are poised to complete their murderous hatred of the decendents of Jacob. Israel has only just begun to, “wrestle with God”, and recognize their Redeemer and Savior, in order to receive the fulness of the blessing of true Salvation in the Messiah they rejected. That their supernatural adversary (the same as ours) would want Israel’s earthly help removed and exterminated completely, I can fully understand this aspect of it.
An article which pretty much sums up my points of contentions re: this now predominant view of eschatology:
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/322-examining-premillennialism
I need to rest a bit after this submissions.
Bo, in post # 77
“I think that it would be good for us to purposefully start to delineate between Israel and Judah so as to minimize confusion and sloppy understandings of scriptural doctrine.”
You’ll have to help me with that delineation as I have trouble understanding it myself. The division of the nation into Israel and Judah are not yet as “one” nation again. Are you speaking of the Ten Tribes? Because I can see where the ten are, at present, still “lightly distilled among the nations.” yet, slowly drifting back. (?)
Just as spoken previously, so, it is today. “Who say they are Jews, but, they lie.” Not all Jews are “of Israel” as they will welcome the false Messiah when he arrives. That would be Esau’s decendents; Palestinians, etc.
“19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.”
This is so clearly those of Islam and of Pagan India and Communist China and such, that it is not worthy to include those Gentiles who are “in Christ” as part of those who “have inherited lies”. Can you see who those are who have inherited these lies from their false prophet, Muhammed, and worshipping idols in India, and worshipping the Chairman in China, and are now up and coming players in worldly arena? Who is it that will “come and lick the dust off of the feet” of those whom the Lord has chosen? Who is it that will come bowing down to God’s chosen? Surely you are not putting Christians in this category. Will you concede that point as a brother in Christ? We must press in as part of the same Body, as you said. We are a new man in Christ. So, maybe we should refer to Gentiles as simply Nations, when distinquished form the Nation of Israel and the Body of Christ from now on.
As the Lord has spoken, so shall it come to pass. The Twelve Apostles will be “reigning over the Twelve Tribes of Israel” in the Millenium. Messiah will be King over all the earth, with the Apostles, not the initial Twelve Heads of the Tribes of Israel, reigning with Him.
I’ll have to finish reading the article, later, Tom. I’ve printed it out.
I differ, with Lindsey, and “left-behiners” in that they have as their basic premise, that we in Christ, are not subject to any part of a seven yera tribulation period.
I don’t subsribe to that at all.
Pre-wrath, definitely. Escaping any discomfort whatsoever, absolutely not. It’s said the children of Israel were subject to some of the same plagues of Egypt before being supernaturally distinqished by the Lord. I see a similar senario in the Revelation. To try us as Gold is refined in a furnace. So, I gave up their brand of end time pronouncements. And I don’t follow the news everyday looking for the minutest point to throw in with prophesy. There are many sincere Christians, though, who hold that view, but, I don’t read it that way. And when the troubles come, what will they say?
“For ‘that day’ will not come ‘until’ the man of sin is revealed.”
I’ve really got to stop cracking myself up with my typos; I better rest.
“left-behiners”–too funny.
Tom, Once again your last URL reference posted has been to present the view you stated you espouse. As with other remarks here, it jumps ahead of our step by step agreement on how to proceed. It seems to have clouded an approach in itself to the subject–as to the four areas we are meeting on–for, as I posted earlier, in #71 toward its final statemens of scriptural reference: the section of Revl. 20 involving the Millenniem involved clearly delinniated certain wars before and after its two “resurrections” of stated groups of the dead. I am not here to represent a pretribulation period “rapture” either, but an examiniation of the Promises given by God to the people of the Land of the Book. I am also not here to spend time on who is Judah, Israel, and Ephriam today, as that can involve endless speculation. It is clear that we have a State of Israel today, with Netanyahu’s agenda of rediscovering its national Heritage, and so from a so-aligned Jewish Jerusalem.
The Greek word used for what happens in the Revelation around the Millennium statement was quoted by me, and, yes, as mentioned too was the citation of the time period. Of concern is where your [Tom’s] interpretation after poasting 71 reads in a new heaven and new earth to the passage extra to the passage (around an image of a scrolled up defiction of literal events) which does not appear of the passage. In fact it is brought to carry in an interpretive view based on an assumptive communication intention and read into the passage. To me this depicts a prejudicial outlook on what is described, which we agreed to address through the process described. And you, Tom, mentioned a more casual approach than a demand by demand approach on this chosen forum exploration instrument. I will not chase other URLs as rabbit trails to that endeavor which we agreed upon. If you wish to bring in some argumentation you read elsewhere to this dveloped discussion so be it, but, fatihfully so here item by item, not as, once again, a blanket approach to all details specifically raised to be addressed. This fails our agreement in principal and fact. It is not faithful to the step by step apprach agreed to.
Your other objection was the literal reference to one thouseand years as is given in the passage. You compare this with doubt to another letter literal reference of 144,000 from an earlier portion of the Revelation (by the way, which you did not state or cite what is revealed there indeed as to 12,000 of each of the tribes (X12) granting this number). The latter reference again, is taken totally out of context and is dismissed with prejudice as well. We are dealing with the redemptive nature of God, his Christ, and the events around that throughout history, which will require some spedcific cues from the passage and our attention for understanding these in the history of God’s working out of redemption.
I am not here to defend those numbers, as they are given by a heavenly vision to John. Clearly, for point of reference, the 144,000 of the vision differ entirely from “a great multitude”, who wash their tobes in the blood of the lamb, which is not numbered of another passage for good reason. Whether or not the 12,000 from each tribe is literal remains for Jesus himself to count, as given, not for my own arithmatic. Why should I doubt the capability of the Creator to seal a certain number of Jews for a time period for holy service and special mission, as “virgins”? These descriptors do not limit or permit God’s own actions by the application of human doubt or count of any literal nature of their depiction. Your prejudical approach to the passage does.
Later, in the picture at the end of the heavenly Jerusalem, we have each tribe in relationship to the gates into the city, and the 12 Apostles too with certain foundational roles of its establishment. Should I, by the logic used, doubt their literal number applying to the gates and foundations as well? If we are dealing with the supernatural actions of the Redemption of our Savior, including a Return as “He left” in the clouds, why the poo poo of a literal number of a season of Messianic reign on earth as is stated to complete promises given Israel in its present literalness or presentation in our time by the actions and agreements of the Redeemer? I cannot reduce your interpretation to what you have read into the passage and dicover the true maening or value of it in context.
Taking one portion of scripture, or of the Revelation literally, as you may for example of seven churches in the then presenting political world of Roman emperor worship, would be far removed from such a reference’s intentions, as we are so cued by the Greek cited in #71. And I am not here to say whether the Millennial number of years of rule is exacting, or the number of those used for holy purposes of the tribes when confronting the spiritual enemy of Christ is exacting, but, a first and second resuurection are certainly depicted as so–linguistically, as to the people groups described (covered in my #71), and as to separating actions of war against the placement involved. It is too descriptively exacting to ignore it as meaning something else entirely than what it states. If the battles around its account are only sysmbolic too, why be so exacting in descriptions?
We could carry the lack of faithful passage exegesis you gave, Tom, into all the New Testament and come up with a symbolic or figurative historical Yeshua, doubt the Almah birth meaning of a virgin, dismiss him because his character was Immannuel, not the literal Name he received, etc. No, Yeshua was sent to Irael, and for its consolation, to which he referes of concern while he is absent over time in Mt. 24-25 as “the least of these, my brethren”. Not only do we have to interpret both literally, and descriptively, we do not have the right to dismiss and add too the character or exacting actions, means, charges to the faithful, and results of the savior’s considered realtionships to him being the Word of God, which overarches the Revelation in fact and deed.
Go back to the 20th chapter, in fact to other sections of the Revelation, where figurative reality is cast, as well as literal reality. What would we do with the drama of the 11th chapter without some confirming detailed information in historical placement–make it all figurative, e.g. one of those witnesses killed being the word of the Old Covenant, the other the Word of the New? Why lay in the streets of the city for a figurative consequence? No, the entire Revelation is about the named Word of God person, and his considered actions extended to certain named people in the setting surrounding his orginal story, but too as correlating with the future promises and language of the Prophets, and the literal timeline of Daniel which also surrounds the Nation’s history. This is complex and detailed, anc needs our step by step examination for God’s own faithfulness to his Word.
Jabez,
Did I ask you to read it? No. It was interesting to me and I thought this board would benefit from it, but I never even so much as implied that it was for you.
I’m not trying to deflect, I just posted that link as a good touchstone on my views. I clearly remember saying I have no felt need to defend my views such as they are.
By the way, (and no offence meant, but…) the consistent application of engorged verbosity compromises the lucidity of your endeavors to communicate and obfuscates the import of your side of our interchange.
In other words: simple language is easier to read through. I can’t quite put my finger on it (maybe an overuse of adjectives?), but it is really hard for me to wade through some of your posts, and I have to keep re-reading the same sentance often in order to understand what you are saying.
Indeed I did, (though 1000 word posts aren’t what I had in mind) and I’m all for having this conversation; I’m really not trying to squirm out of anything as it seems I have been misinterpreted as doing.
That said, what is it specifically you want me to say? I mean, I’m not asking for “demand-by-demand”, I’m just asking for clarification. You are making a whole lot of assertions – do you want me to comment on them? Do you want me to offer my opinion on the truth of your words? I really don’t understand what my role is here. You also ask certain questions, but again, I’m not sure when these are rhetorical and when they are directed at me. Could you help me by clarifying what it is I’m supposed to do?
Earlier you said:
So lets do that, or else tell me what my role is, give me a job description.