Drunk in the Spirit?

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Tokin’ the Ghost?

48 Comments
  1. (Haven’t heard the show yet but watched the YouTube video)

    “There’s no high like the Most High.”

    Hahaha!

  2. It sounds like these guys who get high off of God believe our daily walk with the Lord should be like Woodstock.

    Doesn’t fit right with my spirit, I have to agree with Dr. Brown’s take on this. “Absolutely ugly and deceived”, very well put!

  3. By no means is getting high on the Holy Ghost the goal of John Crowder. He emphasizes again, and again that the goal is Christ and his finished works.

    These outward manifestations are meant to call to mind and contemplation the finished works of the cross.

    His ministry has fruit of many souls.

  4. Crowder’s drug references are appalling….bordering on blasphemous, if not already there. Would I want my 7 year old listening to this “preacher” and asking questions about his illustrations? Does our heavenly Father sanction and encourage this? I don’t think so.

  5. God is good all the time. He never looses his savor.

    The audio clip we heard (Tokin’ the Ghost) is an example of being of the world, or as the world in order to win the world. I believe there are ways of being “as” those in the world without being of them in order to win them. How can we win the world by being as they are, that is, in capivity to it as they? Don’t we have to leave it behind for a higher calling? If we don’t leave the world and it’s ways behind, how shall they, if they follow us?

    Unless we truly follow Christ, should we want anyone else to follow us? We can’t afford to be wearing a varigated patchwork of clothing can we?

    They have to see the cross don’t they?

  6. In Acts there were indications of languages being spoken spontaneously which were understood by traditional Jerusalem religious days lookers on from the wider geographical area of God fearing gentiles and Jews. The assessments that some might be “drunk” written of by Luke were due to new and unexperienced, yet intelligible phenomena (in the hearing of some beholders they heard their own languages from the region being spoken spontaneously by those receiving the New Covenant Witnesses Word and the Spirit [as they had waited for as instructed].). As the remainder of Acts testifies, all this resulted in the areas of evangelization recorded there becoming less fragmented and corrupted by sin, more focused in achieving a response to the teachings of the Apostles as eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus, and greater decency and order in the whole area, semming from churches established in communities over time. How this equates as “toking the Spirit”, for an apparent staggering affect one will know by both comparing the teaching of the UTube actors, with the word of the NT, and its results.

  7. I post this on Dr. Brown’s Facebook page along with a video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQiK_hMVC2k

    This is just getting straight up dangerous, at 3:50 in the video they say they want to spread this around the world. I’ve spoken to a missionary in Tokyo who tells me they’re already there!

    If these terms don’t throw warning signs, I don’t know what will.

    “Soaking is a term used to describe the practice of expectantly waiting and resting in God’s love, rather than striving in prayer.”

    “it’s so transferable”

    And in the video Dr. Brown posted “toking the Ghost.” He makes a gesture like he’s taking a hit from a joint, saying, “This is the access point.”

    Or others who carry water bottles around at this “Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship” It’s not just for a dry throat, it’s so they can “pray” over the water, and by “faith” it is turned into wine. They begin to drink it and show signs of being drunk.

    Matthew 7:16
    16 You will know them by their fruits.

    Is this what a Holy God wants, for us to get drunk in the spirit and act as the world acts when they are drunk or high. God has now become the substitute for this? I don’t see anything edify.

    As you’ve said in your book, “But we should never major on the manifestations. We should pursue the Presence! The Question is not: “Did you get it” but “Do you know Him?”

    We can’t get high on wine or any other drugs, lets get high on The Holy Spirit as a substitute. They use this terminology, and another is “toking The Holy Spirit.”

    In my opinion, they’ve taken a HOLY GOD and have now fit Him into recreational drug use and terms. We don’t come to you, you come to us. We don’t seek you in prayer, we just sit their and soak. What we’ve got is “it’s so transferable” … the days of asking, seeking, knocking are over!

    Reminds me of the Tower of Babel. And what did God do to them? He sent confusion.

    Again, you will know them by their fruit:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSyj2pZisG0

    Another video by a man who came out of this sort of thing, PLEASE WATCH:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyW1UFzS2LY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaNiuRWHZrY

  8. One more thing, if you watch the videos you will see them make a gesture of drinking wine or being drunk, they bring their thumb up to their mouth as if they are drinking it.

    They also want you to “get it,” by transferring it. You notice them wiggle their fingers at the camera.

    This is straight up witchcraft and demonic to me. A straight up counterfeit of The Holy Spirit, people, believe me, they are in a lot churches, more than one would like to think.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSyj2pZisG0

    And I’m not some Baptist who doesn’t believe in the power and the presence of The Holy Spirit. I believe Saul of the Old Testament was slain by the power of The Holy Spirit, people being knocked to the ground, tremors in the body, and other works of The Holy Spirit.

    I had uncontrollable shaking with I was delivered from a demon. The person praying over me got a word of knowledge to not be afraid because angels were in the room with us. I couldn’t control my body. This was not demon possession, but oppression and physical torment. The angels being sent to take this demonic spirit away, and to the pit, from more words of knowledge this was revealed.

  9. I appreciated your take on this. I have some experience with alcoholism in the family. drunkeness and being sober and vigilante are just not compatible with one another. As you said at the very least it is immature.

  10. I think that we can make a big distiction between the “drunk in the spirit” manifestations associated with RHB/TACF and what going on with Crowder and the New Mystics, although I believe that unfortunately one has led to the other through a fleshly progression.

    No one disputes that when God touches you in power you can feel overcome. I think we make a big mistake when we describe that as “drunk” in the spirit; there is no thoughtful scriptural basis for that and it is an unfortunate misnomer.

    In the case of Acts 2, the unbelivers were mocking those who had been baptised in the Holy Ghost – saying they were drunk. It was derogatory, and Peter countered that “We are not drunk as you suppose.”

    In the case of Ephesians 5, the scripture clearly CONTRAST drunkeness with being Filled with the Spirit. GO ahead read verse 18- “Do not get drunk…Instead be filled.”

    I’ve seen a lot over the years; I can remember when Dennis Bennet wrote the book “9 o’clock in the morning.” It shook the evangelical world up. But none of us imagined that the concept of “joy unspeakable and full of glory” would in these last days morph into the near-apostasy demonstrated by the Crowderites, the “new estatics” and the “wine barrel” folks.

    Promoting “sloshfests”, “tokin the holy ghost” and doing all this play-acting: taking bong hits off of crosses or plastic baby jesus, snorting lines off of bibles, injecting holy ghost into our veins and suckling colostrum from the breasts of Jesus – that’s what they do.

    The definition of “profane” is to make oridnary that which is holy; to treat sacred things with abuse and irreverance. We need, as Ezekial 44:23 call out, to teach the people of God the difference between the holy and profane; to cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

    We don’t evangelize by becoming like the world- Paul instructs us to “come out from among them.”

    I could keep going, but these are my thoughts in a nutshell. And so I beg to differ with the statement “These outward manifestations are meant to call to mind and contemplation the finished works of the cross.” And I hope some eyes are opened by my contending.

  11. Great teaching here. I get so tired of these antics in the church. Thank you for defining how one might feel when overwhelmed by the presence of the Holy Spirit versus being seduced by the flesh or ungodly spirits.

  12. What most may not know is that this ‘Crowder movement’ is quite well known in Wales, UK and caused some real issues. The clip as MB has shared is disturbing, but it is in fact much worse than that. They ‘inject’ and ‘snort’ (mainline) and there is much more. We need a genuine manifestation of God to counter this.

    Just as Moses’ snake ate up the snakes of the magicians in Egypt, so will the authentic!

  13. “We need a genuine manifestation of God to counter this”????? We only need to stand on the Word against this, clearly, publicly, and doctrinally. The entire NT is a manifestation of God which stands against such, along with its testimony of Jesus. II Peter and Jude specifically, as well as what Paul wrote on the Spirit vs. the Flesh already counter this.

  14. I’ve seen plenty of play-acting in the Charismatic Church. They call it “prophetic” and it means to act out something in the flesh that God is doing in the spirit. And so we get things like concepts of “spiritual warfare” based on waving imaginary prophetic swords in the air. Right or wrong, I give this as an illustration of propehtic play-acting and not the topic of my query.

    For those who do the Crowderesque play-acting; acting out “tokin the ghost” or drinking imaginary bottle of booze, injecting, snorting, whatever- do you think this is somehow prophetic or do you believe that you are actually, in the first case, inhaling the Holy Ghost?

    Does inhaling the Holy Ghost require mimicking drug use, or could one just breathe normally?

    Is the high you recieve an act or something else? I seriously would like to hear your take on it. Is it just a seeker-friendly skit, reaching out to the drug-culture (and I’m not sold on that approach), or are you really getting high?

    If so, I can see three possibilities

    1. The high comes from God Almighty

    2. You are acting and just being plain silly.

    3. The high comes from Satan.

    If we pick door number one, the follow up question is why did God hide the practice of play-acting the “tokin’ of the holy ghost” from the Church for 2000 years? Did he hate those who are now (and I hesitate to use this expression) in the “great cloud of witnesses” so much that He would not let them experience it?

    Did he hide the “true” meaning of El Shaddai, now understood by the New Mystics as calling on us to (play-act) suckle colostrum at the many tits of Jesus?

    Door number two comes with its own set of problems. Attributing something to God that really isn’t is not a good place to hang out.

    Door number three- well no one would admit that, but it is a possibility.

    Stay with me please. Many years ago I saw something very sad. Two influential leaders in the Charismatic church at a mens retreat, during mininstry time, giggling and chasing each other around the room. Their goal was to zap the other with the Holy Ghost and cause them to be slain. Running around the room chasing each other; I kid you not.

    Friends, the Holy Ghost is not a play toy. It grieves my heart, and I fear for the lives of those who think otherwise.

  15. i really hope someone can explain what is happening because i have heard that these groups have signs and wonders and fruit, they use a lot of teachings from history
    from previous saints. They have stigmata, gems, feathers,
    gold dust and feathers! as well as bliss and ecstacies and
    the person mentioned runs an orphanage.
    also they cast out devils and lead very holy lives, are mystical and do street work.

    we have seen very little of this sort of thing at all so are totally perplexed by what appears to be going on in the U.S.A

  16. Sally,

    The bigger questions I would ask are: 1) Is this movement resulting in true conversions to Jesus that are lasting and real? 2) Is it producing holiness in the lives of those who are touched? 3) Is it producing holy fear and reverence for God?

    The other stuff — the stigmata and feathers and gold dust — is absolutely immaterial to me and could just as well be counterfeit. And if there is holiness in the lives of these men and women, is it because of their message or despite their message? Don’t just look at an isolated case; look at the larger fruit of those who are touched by the message and the method and see the standard produced in their lives.

    I have also read the writings of some leading mystics of years past, and most of them are marked by deep reverence for God and holy awe — not some attempt to get high on God like a drug (or worse).

    I would be interested in hearing Andrew’s perspective from the UK, since I know him to be a man who loves the things of the Spirit and loves revival.

  17. I am a team member with Corner Stone Prison Ministries in Texas. In my preaching to the inmates I often make mention of the peace that passes all understanding! The joy of the Lord and the freedom that only Jesus can render! I tell them it almost feels illegal … but you can’t smoke it, you can’t drink it, you can’t snort it, you can’t shoot it into your arms … you can only part take of it through an intimate relationship with the Son of God, Yeshua, Jesus the Christ.
    I agree with Dr. Brown totally!
    Bro Rob

  18. The video is disgusting rubbish! “..Be filled with the Spirit is in opposition to being drunk with wine, wherein is excess. The apostle Paul makes a contrast, he does not draw a comparison. Crowder’s words and actions are egocentric, and his reference to “fat little Friar Tuck angels rolling out barrels” is absolutely appalling. Wake up church! This is not Christianity but the kind of entertainment one would expect to see at a karioke night on a slack night at the local pub.

  19. Good discussion by Dr. Michael Brown here…

    I am good friends with someone, who loves the Lord and is keen never to make a mockery of Him or to just accept any old fad that comes in His name, who also claims to have been ‘drunk in the spirit’. She is passionate about holiness and reaching out in love to those that need it through His power. Neither of us are sure about some of the weirder things we have heard about in charismatic circles – but, then again, just because something looks weird to our human eyes does not mean it is not of God. I think if preachers today did half the things some of the prophets of the Hebrew Bible did they’d be heresy-hunted out of the Church! And imagine if somebody claimed that their aprons and handkerchiefs had healed people today! Actually, speaking of Paul…I’ve read Acts many times, but often forget this little story:

    Acts 14:11-13
    11When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” 12Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.

    Poor Paul! There he is, anointed by God and doing miracles to glorify Him, and the people he is trying to reach really don’t get it – and worship him and Barnabas as gods instead. What would people say about such a gross misunderstanding today? Or what about the mentally disturbed demon-possessed woman who followed Paul around, shouting about the Lordship of Jesus – only to be silenced after two days? Or Simon, who after believing the Gospel as a result of Philip’s ministry, decides he wants to buy the power of the Holy Spirit from Peter with gold?

    When the Holy Spirit is moving powerfully, some will get confused and do things they shouldn’t. The fruit will be good, but it will not be completely perfect by any means. It may look odd to the natural eye, and onlookers could find much to be disturbed by – because imperfect people are involved as well as God. The more I study the Word, the more surprised I am that people use it to justify their suspicion of all revivals (with all the imperfections that go on in them.)

    It was a more in-depth study of the Word and my friend’s experience that made me open to how some individuals have experienced being ‘drunk in the Spirit’. Perhaps it is just an unfortunate phrase to describe a genuine, overpowering encounter with God’s Spirit? An experience of God so overpowering that one is physically unable to do what one could usually do for a period? Some may shout, ‘Blasphemy! Everything must be in control!’ But what is control? Is it so odd that one may react physically to the Creator of the Universe? That one might be knocked out by His glory? When Paul encountered the Lord Jesus, what do you think he looked like? How did he walk; how did he speak afterwards? Was he shaken?

    I’ve tried my best to study the Bible in detail and to avoid reading what I want into it. I myself rarely experience any of the physical manifestations we are talking about here. But I’ve noticed that the Scriptures often simply do not offer detailed descriptions of peoples’ physical reactions the the Spirit of God. Why are we so concerned with people falling, or crying or trembling? (All three of which are actually in the Bible, anyway.) How can we be so sure in our judgments? If somebody is screaming during a service, perhaps we shouldn’t judge them, as I myself was tempted to during one meeting. Perhaps, that person is being purged of hurts, of demons, of pain and suffering that has gone on for years by the power of the Spirit. Trembling in God’s presence, or falling, or crying, or whatever else – these externals are surely unimportant. Most times I am in worship I feel like crying: I don’t see an example of people crying in worship in the Bible. Does that make it wrong? No. I am crying because God is working – it’s my emotions and physical self reacting to the Spirit’s work within me during worship. If someone is laughing – what if they’ve been depressed for seven years and are laughing for the first time because of the Holy Spirit’s work? Just like a crippled person who has just been healed and runs around yelling praise to God, maybe?

    Read about what happened when in revivals of old. People did scream and fall and tremble! Why? Because they were in the presence of an awesome, Holy God! Not all of them did, and it is not a necessity, but if you’re a frail, sinful human and you’re being touched by a Holy, all-powerful God, you’re own sinfulness is bound to make you squirm, and His burning, perfect love may well cause a reaction in you beyond the usual ordered standing and sitting and singing!

    I sometimes feel like this: How dare a stranger come along, look in on the outside at a genuine plea to God and a genuine experience of God, and then proclaim it not of God just because they don’t like how it looks. It really breaks my heart. When an all powerful, holy, all loving God puts His finger on people, I think it is unsurprising that some may cry out, or fall to the floor under His might, or laugh for joy in His presence, or tremble under His power. I’m not saying that such visceral reactions need to happen, or ought to happen, or that they should ever be sought in and of themselves: just that they could happen, depending on the personality in question and the way in which God is dealing with them. The reason people get so upset about accusations against these things is not because we are so proud of our theology and so clingy with our emotional experiences that we can’t deal with ‘the truth’ – it is because God has done a work in us and others, and a side product of such ‘surgery’ has sometimes involved emotive and physical responses. When I fell to the ground and cried at a service many years ago, I was convicted of sin and embraced my father afterwards and apologized for trying to damage his faith years before. It was totally opposed my own (evil) character, and something I would not have done had the Spirit of the Lord not overpowered me, but He did, and it was wonderful.

    What do you think the priests looked like when this happened?

    2 Chronicles 5: Then the temple of the Lord was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the temple of God.

    When I read materials by those opposed to the Spirit’s supernatural moving today, I am reminded of this oft-forgotten section in Luke 19:

    36 As he rode along, the crowds spread out their garments on the road ahead of him. 37 When he reached the place where the road started down the Mount of Olives, all of his followers began to shout and sing as they walked along, praising God for all the wonderful miracles they had seen.

    38 “Blessings on the King who comes in the name of the Lord!
    Peace in heaven, and glory in highest heaven!”

    39 But some of the Pharisees among the crowd said, “Teacher, rebuke your followers for saying things like that!”

    40 He replied, “If they kept quiet, the stones along the road would burst into cheers!”

    And please, remember Jesus’ promise:

    Luke 11:11-13

    11 “You fathers—if your children ask for a fish, do you give them a snake instead? 12 Or if they ask for an egg, do you give them a scorpion? Of course not! 13 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.”

    If you ask God for the Holy Spirit, He won’t give you a demon. If people in a meeting or Church have honestly asked JESUS for His Father’s Spirit, they will not get anything else. Anyone who says otherwise is clearly ignoring Jesus’ promise here! There’s no two ways about it. God has laid down principles in His Word that He can never violate. But the Word does not even contain every different miracle Jesus did (see the end of John’s Gospel) or every miracle God could ever do, nor does it contain depictions of every possible physical reaction people may have to His Spirit’s workings. If someone has sought God and God alone, I can not judge their experience as demonic, no matter how ‘odd’ it might look to the natural mind – Jesus’ promise in Luke prevents me from doing so. And my friend was seeking God (not some emotional high or anything else) that time. She was so struck by His power and overwhelmed by His glory that on the OUTSIDE she may have resembled a ‘drunk’, but I personally believe what happened was of God. 🙂

  20. I would just like to caution people that you are only seeing a “clip” which means things can be taken out of context and with out actually beeing there and letting your spirit discern things of the spirit I would not be one to pass judgement. I can say for myself that I have had some encounters with God that have left me “stoned” for a lack of a better word for days. It was because the download I received from Jesus was so unbelievable it took me days to wrap my brain around it. I work with students on a regular basis and if they had an encounter or was “drunk” in the spirit they would never want the recreational drugs and alcohol that they had been messing with. I think God is the only one that can pass judgement on this and I will pray that what ever is going on leads people to a true encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ and compells them to live a life holy and pleaseing unto the Lord.

  21. Also, I know that addicts use their substance as a way to deal with their problems….I can’t think of a better way to deal with my problems then to get lost in the presence of God. When I am consumed with him my earthly problems look so different in the light of him.

    I am not saying I agree with what they are doing…what I am saying is that I can see lots of ways the two can resemble each other and with a lack of better words to describe it we are left with what we do know to compare it to.

  22. The first time that I saw John Crowder was in a youtube video with Benjamin Dunn. The video had the “Cops” theme playing and these two were being pulled over by the police. The car was full of smoke. The cop gets them out of the car and pats them down, when the cop finds a baby figure, like you find in king cake. John and Benjamin start kidding around with the cop. Next, the three of them are smoking this baby figure. I was appalled to say the least. The other interesting fact was it was produced by John Crowder’s Sons of Thunder group. I was trying to find the video on youtube but they have seemed to have pulled it.

  23. I think the ones on the audio clip are trying to get the point across that God’s spirit feels good but it makes it look like it is on the same level and of the same nature as a drug high. It was news to an unbelieving, drug using friend of mine that God’s spirit feels better than alcohol or other drugs. I can make some differentiation between drug spirits and God’s spirits. Drug spirits have negative side effects and put us in bondage (create withdrawal pains if we try to escape), even though they can also create “special effects” that make us feel good for a time and at a heavy price. God’s spirits have no negative side effects and liberate us instead of putting us in bondage. I have found that drug spirits, including alcohol, often create bad feelings for a time before suggesting to the mind that drugs are the answer to eliminate the pain. God’s spirits don’t seek to make us feel bad or to manipulate like that. This is the spiritual interpretation of my experiences. Maybe the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden was a drug (?). There is no substitute for God’s spirit.

  24. Having watched a couple of the Crowder videos, I find this all a bit confusing. I agree that the references to drunkeness and “tokin” are at best inappropriate, at worst, irreverent or blasphemous. However, having listened to the message, I find a lot of Crowder’s theology quite sound, i.e. the completed work of Christ, being seated in heavenly places, the finished work of the cross, our new incorruptible nature, etc. I find Crowder’s tone at times displeasing and patronizing but, I can’t say that I find the theology too off. Am I mistaken? Is this a counterfeit message with a counterfeit Holy Spirit? Or is it possible for the message to be true and the application to be false or deceived? I have been really wrestling with this lately as it seems that the “new” grace message is often accompanied with similar manifestations. I believe in the Holy Spirit and I believe in His ability and desire to overwhelm us; I also believe that He will use the foolish to confound the wise but, … I need understanding of how to navigate all this.

  25. John just saw 100,000 people give their hearts to Christ in India.

    I would like to also point out, that although there has been some weirdos from TACF, that Heidi Baker’s ministry which was birthed out of the Toronto Blessing movement has seen over 10,000 churches planted in Africa and around the world.

    That’s some fruit folks.

  26. Dr MB,

    I have sent you an email to fill in the blanks, as it were. We are sensing a new thing in God coming to Wales, and it is all about Jesus, our love of Him, His Word, His Kingdom and Spirit.

    Anything else that mimics the world, the flesh, the devil, then John says, we have an anointing from the Holy One, we know the truth, and it teaches us all things.

    Andrew

  27. Thank you so much for addressing this issue Dr. Brown! I’ve written about this in my own blogs in an effort to combat the spread of it here where I’m at locally. It is so alarming that this is sweeping through the church the way it is. I’m inclined to believe that we are in the end of times, and I know that there will be deceptions and false teachings/doctrines sweeping through to try and deceive. So in a way, I’m not surprised. Nevertheless, it’s sad to see these things happen. I pray that the truth of the Word will pierce the hearts of these people.

  28. Regardless of clips, being filled with the Spirit is not the same as being drunk or high. Although, I have had and continue to have mystical experiences, nonetheless we are not to be comformed to this world. The drug and drinking language only conforms to the world of substance use/abuse. I drink wine but not to dissiapation nor will I cause a brother to stumble.

    When I have brought recovering addicts to services where this language is being used, it greatly disturbed them. Now there is righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Spirit and we are to be transformed in our mind ie returned to Adonay in repentance and then live lives accordingly.

    I am passionate about Adonay, but tokin on the Holy Ghost, does not re-present Christ accurately, nor is it acceptable to me to say that El Elyon is not the Most High God of pot!
    Most of these folks are wounded and the leaders think that this is the rememdy. Deception is the most deceiving of all.
    I pray that by the Truth, these young men will be transformed by YHVH/Yeshua/Ruach Hakadosh

  29. Eph 5: 18 is talking about being under the influence of the Spirit, the used is filled: The Greek word is pleroo, play-ro’-o; from Greek 4134 (pleres); to make replete, i.e. (literal) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figurative) to
    furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.
    :- accomplish, x after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

    We are to be filled, not drunk: The Greek word for drunk: methusko, meth-oos’-ko; a prolonged (transitive) form of Greek 3184 (methuo); to intoxicate :- be drunk (-en).

    One is influence (filled) and other intoxicated (drunk).

    I believe it is a form of ignorance and disrespect of the Holy Spirit.

  30. I think we have to make a difference between the physiological manifestations that occur when the Spirit of God is moving in power — the “tingling of ears” mentioned in 1 Samuel, for instance) and the silly talk and actions seen on the video. I have seen extreme manifestations on Borneo and in the Philippines — people bending over backwards beyond the body’s ability, to get away from the Lord, while their feet are fixed. I have seen demonized people thrown back quite some distance when touched by the power of God. These are reactions. I have no problem with holy laughter or believers swaying or falling under the power of God. But there’s no element of mockery in these things. Praise God for fruit, but a bit of self-control doesn’t prevent it. Of course, the further from towns one goes the more amazing the manifestations are. This is due to the spiritual collisions common when we encounter the demonic.

  31. >I would just like to caution people that you are only seeing a “clip” which means things can be taken out of context.

    Kristen,

    How can I take a clip posted by Crowder himself out of context? Is he that bad at communicating what he is all about? I think he is a very good communicator. There are perhaps HOURS of Crowder video on You Tube or elsewhere. How can you take him calling to a crowd of whirling dervishes to (play-act) suckle at the breasts of Jesus anything but wrong, sick, and misguided? How does mimicking illegal and immoral activities promote holiness? Please respond.

    At the very best, what he does is “silly talk and coarse jesting” whis is PROHIBITED by Ephesians 5:4. “There must be no” is pretty emphatic, don’t you think? Please respond.

  32. Lisa,

    The theology is not “too off” if you find Latter Rain doctrines acceptable. Most of the church would say his theology is way off.

    Here is a video supplied by Crowder, where Crowder expound the virtue of John Alexander Dowie. Note that at 1:15 into the video, with Crowder kneeling at the grace of Dowie, he talks about Dowie’s anointing.

    “We just rip it (the anointing) right out of the ground, we just suck it right off his dead bones, in Jesus name, and loose it to you, a healing revival glory..”

    I can’t find any context that makes this anything less that “too off,” but watch the entire clip for yourself and report back to the class.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKmVR8OutQk

    He goes on to say:

    “just encourage you now to take a hit of of a controversial glory, take a hit of pioneering forerunning glory… we honor our fathers in the faith, those who have gone before us, pull on that same glory – and I thank you Lord that you are releasing the former rains and the Latter rains on one generation. We’re going to tap into the former glory but also the future glory.”

    As to a little historical context, Dowie liked to dress up in priestly robes and fancied himself to be Elijah. He also promoted “Anglo-Israelism,” the belief that Anglo-Saxons were the lost tribes of Israel. A real looney-tune. Perhaps Crowder has really been sucking on his bones.

    I’m not trying to be argumentitive. Please watch this Crowder video and tell me what you think.

    -Bill

  33. By the way, this was a great broadcast and a good topic to discuss. I believe that, as christians, we need to really seek God on what the Bible calls “discernment of spirits” — which is mentioned in 1 Cor. 12:8-10. There may be many christians who have no idea what that really is. There are christians who do not believe that miracles, healing, speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc. are not for today. Therefore, to them, any ministry who practices in supernatural manifestations is part of something heretical. I do not consider this to be true discernment. The supernatural of God is biblical. Audioartist made a good point in his comment that we should not judge these kinds of churches and ministries based on whether something looks weird or different.

    If you are familiar with VCY America and their radio broadcast of “Crosstalk,” you probably know by many of their programs that they (along with other ministries who support their view)have a long list of christians and ministries that they have labeled heretical. One might think by listening to their show that hardly anyone is really a christian — except them. I do not call what they do as “discernment” most of the time. Again, any practice of the supernatural in their eyes is seen as bad and wayward.

    On the other hand, for those of us who are charismatic, we need to make sure that we are practicing true discernment and not just accepting something as being from God because it looks and sounds miraculous. I am not familiar with John Crowder’s ministry. I would have to know and see more of what he does and what he believes. I think Dr Brown made a good point in his broadcast that the point of being drunk in the spirit is not to be weird and do nonsense. Also, in his comment to Sally on this page, he points out that we should look at whether these things are bringing people into relationship with Jesus, bringing them to a life of holiness and reverence for God. These are good things to keep in mind.

    Before we judge something to be heretical or witchcraft, maybe we need to ask the Holy Spirit to teach us about true discernment of the spirits. If gold dust is happening, I can’t dismiss it because it sounds false or ridiculous. If it’s really gold dust appearing, I want to know what the source of the miracle is. Is it of God, or is it of something outside of God? In that situation, I need the Holy Spirit showing me what is true.

  34. Correction: in my above comment, first paragraph, I meant to say, “There are christians who believe that miracles, healing, speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc. are not for today.”

  35. I’d just like to say well done to Audioartist above on a great post. And this coming from a jewish ex-charismatic, ex-anglican, ex-catholic now “reform” (yes TULIP!) christian who still believes in the “gifts” (with extreme caution).

  36. Charlie,

    I just spotted your post in which you write that, “John just saw 100,000 people give their hearts to Christ in India.”

    If he preached Jesus and called people to repentance and faith, then I rejoice! Having ministered in India virtually every year since 1993, I would, however, ignore these big numbers and wait to see how many lasting converts/disciples there are. I can also assure you that the genuine Indian disciples will not be “toking the Ghost.”

    As for Heidi Baker, I praise God for what He is doing through her. Wonderful! She is an inspiration to me and to many others. In fact, I’m scheduled to minister with her in Germany in just a few days. And I praise God for the good fruit that came out of Toronto, although I myself never attended there and although I certainly would not have agreed with everything that took place in the meetings (nor would I expect someone to agree with everything that took place in Brownsville or in your local church for that matter).

    That being said, I will certainly speak out against abusive and unbiblical practices when I see them, and there’s no doubt that this “Jehovah-uana” stuff should be rejected.

  37. From my study of the Torah, God gives man a way to live an orderly life in order to live in wholeness. I believe joy in God is totally acceptable, even desirable, but drunkenness in any form would not be acceptable. Think- if we are to imitate Yeshua would he appear as one drunk?

    Thank you for addressing this issue.

  38. Sharon,

    There are some misunderstanding about what it means to imitate Christ. Ive heard of one example of a person who would not smile because the Bible doesn’t mention about Jesus smiling.

    My point is, to imitate Christ is about the heart.

  39. Don’t get drunk with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit. We are not drunk as you suppose but this is that outpouring of the Spirit that Joel prophesied.

    I think some of these guys are just being very immature, taking the concept too far and being disrespectful but let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.

  40. I’d like to offer my input since I’m the one who produced (and appeared in) the original “Tokin’ the Ghost” video with John Crowder.

    In February 2007 a fellow missionary I was traveling with at that time started preaching on “smoking the weed from heaven” and encouraged other believers to take “hits.” I was a bit uncomfortable with the idea but didn’t contest it.

    Then in October of that year, I heard John Crowder preach on “toking the Ghost” at a church in North Dakota. I filmed the video there with John originally to share with my missionary friend. During the filming, I experienced so much joy that I decided to make the video public figuring other people might enjoy it also.

    Two weeks later at a church in Minnesota, I heard Benjamin Dunn share testimonies of people getting healed from “toking the Ghost.” This was just before he and John Crowder started ministering together. I felt this was God confirming His word in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

    Many people were blessed by my “Tokin’ the Ghost” video especially those who got saved out of the drug culture. However, a few individuals took issue with it. One woman emailed me saying she couldn’t find basis for it in Scripture, where there are plenty of references to the Holy Spirit being like wine.

    In response, I referred to the leaves from the tree of life mentioned in Revelation 22:2. Evangelist Jesse Duplantis testifies in his book “Close Encounters of the God Kind” that when he went to heaven in 1988, he saw people smell leaves for healing or when they felt weak. I suggested that has a similar effect as “toking the Ghost”, which is breathing in the presence of God.

    Many Bible verses (such as Isaiah 43:19) talk about God doing new things. The gospel of John says Jesus did other things that were not written down. One could speculate how unusual those “other things” might have been. Spitting in mud to heal the blind is radical enough. Of course, we are to reject all ideas contrary to the word of God (2 Corinthians 10:5).

    This same woman also asked if I thought John Crowder and Benjamin Dunn have a genuine reverence for God. James 1:27 says, “Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.” Both John and Ben’s ministries are involved with taking care of orphans and “loving the lepers.”

    Two years ago I decided to remove the “Tokin’ the Ghost” video from YouTube after an exchange of emails with John Crowder in which he promoted a doctrine similar to “once saved, always saved.” Then earlier this year, John posted a video that condoned Christians drinking fermented wine. There are many Scriptures warning against such activity (but that’s a whole another sermon). Therefore, I no longer feel comfortable endorsing John Crowder’s ministry but still consider him a brother in the Lord.

    It should be pointed out that (as far as I know) both John Crowder and Benjamin Dunn no longer promote “Toking the Ghost.” Their like-titled electronica album is now out of print. Nevertheless, they still get online flak for preaching that. Heresy hunters should stop wasting time making that an issue.

    In closing, I should point out I used to get drunk on alcohol before I got saved in 1991 and yet I was initially offended by Christians “drinking of the Spirit.” Since then I’ve embraced that just like “toking the Ghost.” Both of which are prophetic acts that still give me holy laughter to this day. “A merry heart does good like medicine.” (Proverbs 17:22)

  41. Almost all the video clips shared on this page have been taken down by YouTube.

    So much for transparency…

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