Dr. Brown Tackles the Controversies and Answers Your Questions (including Tatoos and Body Piercing; Contemporary Apostles; and an Update on Supermarket Smut)
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Dr. Brown Tackles the Controversies and Answers Your Questions (including Tatoos and Body Piercing; Contemporary Apostles; and an Update on Supermarket Smut)
Comments are closed.
I would love to go to fire school of ministry. Its definately something I am praying about.
Dr Brown,
A matter shall be resolved upon the testimony of two or three witnesses (faithful one’s of course). If so, if there have been countless thousands perhaps millions of believers who have faithfully testified to having seen miracles performed to God’s glory-why do people disbelieve?
Actually we should be rejoicing that The Lord is among us, and like our brothers before us from the 1st Century this should cause us to Fear God, for He is in our midst. Let us know before whom we stand!
What do you think? Is wearing makeup a precursor to tattooing or is it the other way around?
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If we could just accept what Paul wrote to Timothy we would have no doubt as to what is the correct behavior in this matter. Paul was referring to the Tanakh as the scripture that was enough to determine righteous behavior. So if we were to believe this and read Leviticus 19 we would conclude that making marks on our bodies was not appropriate for those that accept the call to be holy as He is holy.
Here is a few snapshots from Leviticus 19:
Leviticus 19
1 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy….
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD….
26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.
27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.
30 ¶ Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD….
36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.
37 Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.
It is strange that we tend to pick and choose out of this chapter. If we had a consistent teaching that the law has not been made of no effect we would not have such controversy and unclear convictions. But for those that reject the idea that the law still tells us what righteous behavior is the ambiguity will remain.
Please know that I do not think that anyone can be saved by keeping the law. I am only expressing that since Y’shua did not come to abolish even one jot or tittle, it still tells us the truth about holy and righteous behavior.
Shalom
Leviticus 19:37
Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.
“All” means all, that’s all “all” means.
Shalom
I was wondering, Bo, if you think that animals should continue to be sacrificed ritually?
I found this link of great interest: (hopefully I copied it correctly and it’s a live one)
http://www.bibleanswer.com/animalsac.htm
Respectfully
Bo,
the problem I have with what you are saying is you don’t do it. The old testament also says to stone disobediant children. Do you do this? Was Paul saying this should be followed? The Old Testament says eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth (Ex. 21:24, Lev. 24:20 – only a couple of chapters after the one in question), but Jesus tells us not to follow this (Matt. 5:38)
Was Paul going against Jesus and saying we should not obey Jesus, but the Law instead. God forbid (to use Paul’s words).
So the question is: What Old Testament Laws do we follow and which ones are done away with?
In the New Testament Jesus died and took the punishment for our sin, and then sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in us. We are not like the Jews in the Old Testament who had to live with external moments with God, we are granted access to live permantely with God in us.
The Law in the Old Testament dealt with physical things, like murder, adultery, food, cleanliness, etc….but as Jer. 33 tells us the law under the new covenant is one written on the hearts. Jesus tells us that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him (dealing with the washing of hands), but what comes out.
O.T. – Murder (physical) N.T – Hate (heart)
O.T. – Adultery (physcial) N.T – Lust (heart)
The physical O.T laws became N.T heart attitudes that birth obedience.
So what about Lev. 19 – Verse 26-29 deal with pagan worship. In the N.T. we find out that worship is not physical things (like music and clapping – even though these are good to be used in worship) but rather worship is from the heart. It is spirit and truth from the inside. Jesus tells the woman at the well that it doesn’t matter what mountain they worship on, the issue is knowing who you are worshipping and having your heart set on loving God.
It is no longer cutting the corners of your beard that is pagan worship, but if you are cutting your beard with a heart to worship false gods, it is wrong. The same goes for tatoos. A tatoo in and of itself is not wrong. It is the motive behind the tatoo, and what the tatoo depicts that make it wrong of not.
Getting a tatoo that is symbolic of Christ and my deep relationship with Him is not something that is pagan worship. So I would not be breaking the Law that is written on my heart.
I hope that makes sense. That is my take on it, but of course I am always open to hear other perspectives in the never-ending journey for truth.
God Bless
Won’t there be animal sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom? After all I see no place in the NT where it says they will cease in this world, in the world to come yes because death will be swallowed up. But in the meanwhile they are shadows that looked forward to Messiah, its possible that even if they were performed today they would be looked at as symbols of what the Messiah has done, symbols of the reality so I don’t see that as a real issue.
As for stoning people and so on, it says in the NT that we shall even judge angels. So the issue is not about whether it is ok to stone sinners. Clearly there are righteous reasons to do so, our mission at this time is one of reconciliation and not judgement. Even in Church discipline this is the understanding that discipline is given for the purpose of eventual reconciliation. However when the time for judgement comes, then at that time the mandate to carry out judgement shall be given.
Ruth,
I’m thinking along the same lines as Mwiya. Some believers were planning to take part in a ritual offering many years after Messiah’s sacrifice. It is interesting that Paul was taking part to prove that he continued to obey and teach Torah.(Ac. 21:20-26) Does anybody want to be great in the kingdom?(Mat. 5:19) Malachi points to a future time when the Levites will be purified to offer again. And it looks like Y’shua is the one that purifies them.(Mal. 3:1-6) Ezekiel goes into great detail about the offerings in the millennial temple.( Eze. 40:39-46:24)
Sometimes symbols, types and shadows point forward and sometimes they point back. The Passover is a good example. For about 1400 years it pointed forward to Messiah’s sacrifice. The whole time it pointed back to the exodus. Now it points back to both and forward to the greater exodus and maybe more. Tabernacles points back to the wilderness wanderings and to Y’shua tabernacling with us. It points forward to the millennium.
There are other sacrifices, besides sin offerings and such, that are basically holy barbecues to celebrate and thank YHWH. There is no physical temple or Levitical priesthood available right now so it looks like animal sacrifices are somewhat of a moot point at the moment. I think some of the sacrifices point to us offering ourselves as living sacrifices.
We still get baptized and married even though these things are symbolic pictures of Messiah’s work.
Shalom
Mwiya,
Hebrews 10 deals with the topic of sacrifice under the new covenant, and it is clear that Jesus’ sacrifice was the end of O.T sacrifice. I do not see anywhere in the New Testament where animal sacrifice is to be done in rememberence, that is Communion which Jesus tells us to do in rememberence.
So what about animal sacrifices in the Millennium? I will say again this is my take on it, but of course I may be wrong. Different perspectives always help. The clearest passage on this is Eze. 40-48. This describes the Millennial Temple and it is pretty clear the Temple was built for Sacrifice and sacrifices are mentioned. Could it be that since the Millennial temple is actually built prior to Jesus’ return that the sacrifices are started during the G.T. by the Jews who are not saved but cease with the Antichrist’s demand to be worshipped (you can see this in Daniel), and then not renewed during Jesus’ reign because they are unnecessary?
In chap. 43 Ezekiel describes the glory of God coming to the eastern gate. Is that not the Messiah returning to His temple? It seems clear that the glory of God is a physical being in the first few verses of ch. 43. He says that Israel will shame God no more… so I’m led to think that all remaining Jews were saved at His return before/during the Battle of Jerusalem (Armageddon) therefore making any sacrifices obsolete.
Not one verse in the passage says that these sacrifices continue for 1000 years. That is just a perspective.
As for stoning people and so on, the reason that our mission at this time is one of reconciliation and not judgement. is because of the New Covenant. The Law was good for only judgment as Paul tells us that sin is made known by the Law, and sin brings death. Under the New covenant we are able to live with God indwelling us making it possible to be free from the Law of sin and death and be made slaves to Christ. Whom the Lord loves He corrects, as you said for the sake of reconcilliation.
But what is reconcilliation? It is your heart being brought back to God. Again showing us that it is about the inward. We will judge based on the heart. If someone truly has their heart set on Jesus, they will not, as 1 Cor 6 says, be joined with a harlot. They will avoid sin and live holy because their heart is turned to God. So the judgment is on how the fruit of the life shows what is in the heart. Showing all the while the beauty of the New Covenant. It is not about physical works, but the heart.
So all that to say, what is the heart of getting a tatoo….is it worship of a false god as discussed in Lev. 19 (including self, by selfish prideful motives, or other people, by wanting to be “cool” etc…) or is is for God (like getting a tatoo that reminds you of the commitment you made to Christ)……
It is a heart issue, not a physical issue.
Dr. Brown,
I would deeply appreciate it if you would respond to the above posts re: animal sacrifice…
Frankly, it sounds to me as if some people who claim to believe in Messiah, actually want to return to pre-Messiah days, as if He never actually came and died and rose again. This is pretty startling stuff — does Fire School teach this?
Again, thank you for taking any time to respond.
Respectfully
Ruth,
I do not want to return to “pre-Messiah days”. I accept His sacrifice. Ezekiel plainly says that there will be a temple in the future and scrifices will be offered there. These sacrifices will be symbolic just as the former ones were.
Revelation speaks of the everlasting gospel. Hebrews speaks of the gospel being preached to them (Israel at Mt. Sinai) as well as to us. David lived in relationship to Messiah before this earth witnessed the sacrifice of Y’shua. His sacrifice was promised by YHWH. That makes it a done deal even before we see it. That is what faith is. Abraham saw Y’shua’s day and rejoiced. Animal sacrifices have always been symbolic of the real sacrifice. I personally believe in the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world to take away my sin, just like David and Abraham did.
I think you are misrepresenting what people have posted by the comment, “Frankly, it sounds to me as if some people who claim to believe in Messiah, actually want to return to pre-Messiah days, as if He never actually came and died and rose again. ” It is pretty obvious that no one has said any such thing.
Shalom
Matt,
I have posted quite a bit on the preceding forums(2/19 & 2/24). If you would like to read them, you might get a better picture of what I am saying. I must be away form the computer till Sunday. I will try to answer you then, YHWH willing.
Matt,
Shalom
Ruth,
I forgot to tell you…I read the link you posted. Thanks.
Shalom
The Rougher Way (a poem to inspire faithfulness)
So many times I’ve heard it said,
“The road to hell is smoothly paved
with the high and good intentions
of those that think they’re surely saved.”
But those that turn around and climb
the rocky path to heaven’ gates,
though they stumble often times,
for their good deeds, reward awaits.
It’s NOT the heart or thought that counts,
though pure and noble they may be,
if the hands and feet attached
are pointed toward the flaming sea.
The only kind of faith that’s true
is clearly seen by all around.
It’s not belief or what we say,
but what we DO on earthly ground.
The Creator of our world has said
He fights against the ones that think
that they can go their asphalt way
proudly blinded to how low they sink.
But grace and peace await the soul
that can bring himself to say,
“I was wrong…I’ll do Your will.”
And continue up the rougher way.
Anon.
Bo,
I read your posts, I know you’ll be offline til Sunday.
RE: animal sacrifices.
For Heaven’s sake, Bo…
Jesus (Messiah Yeshua) gave his ALL when He poured out His blood for all of us. The cost of His sacrifice was HUGE.
Animal sacrifices were instituted in OT times to expiate for (to atone for; make amends or reparation for) the sins of the people. These sacrifices weren’t able to, even though thousands upon thousands were ritually killed for that reason. The whole (clean) animal kingdom could have been exhausted and it still wouldn’t have been enough.
Jesus came from Heaven out of mercy and poured out His blood.
There will be no more animal sacrifices acceptable to God.
If people want to relive OT times, it’s too late, they can’t. God destroyed both Temples for a reason! As it’s written in First Kings, Ch. 9:
“And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD, and the king’s house, and all Solomon’s delight which he was pleased to do, that the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as He had appeared unto him at Gibeon. And the LORD said unto him: I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which thou has built, to put My name there for ever; and Mine eyes and My heart shall be there perpetually.
And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before Me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep My statutes and Mine ordinances; then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom over Israel for ever; acccording as I promised to David thy father, saying: There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
BUT [emphasis mine] if ye shall turn away from following Me, ye or your children, and not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, but shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for My name, will I cast out of My sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a by word among all peoples; and this house which is so high [shall become desolate], and every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and when they shall say: Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house? they shall be answered: Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them; therefore hath the LORD brought all this evil upon them.”
Idolatry, of course, which the archeological evidence also bears out. It took awhile, yes, for Israel to become monotheistic and put away idolatry. And I’ve often thought that no other people, had God chosen another people, would have done better than the ancient Israelites. Of course, I can’t know this, but I think human nature is such that we tend to want to do what everybody else is doing. And since polytheism was the prevailing culture, it took a lot of faith and fortitude to go against the grain.
The point I’m making from all of this is that no matter how much time and effort and great expense went into the construction of the first temple, God was adamant about what he wanted: righteous submission, or else the deal was broken.
Same basic scenario again for the second Temple; they sinned to such an extent, God cast it out of His sight again.
Obviously, something greater than the efforts of the Hebrews to please God had to occur — a million lambs would not have been enough to expiate for sin. They needed something, some part of God’s nature itself to make them rise above their human nature.
That’s what Yeshua’s sacrifice did: gave us a deeper, more spiritual relationship with God than ever. Instead of needing the High Priest to offer our gift on the altar, Jesus is our only way to the Father. Not that we don’t have altars. Not that we don’t offer gifts. We have to make peace with our brethren before we offer our gifts. If we even have anger against our brethren without cause, we’re in danger of the judgement. But we don’t need the function of the High Priest to burn animals to expiate for our sins. Because HE CAME and offered HIMSELF.
To want to bring back animal sacrifices is (to me) like wanting to relive OT times. Does God want that? Isn’t that like telling God that “No, the sacrifice of your only-begotten Son was not quite enough in itself. Yes, we do believe in Him, so we’re going to do what You wanted us to do before He came, because even though He fulfilled the law, and told us that nothing from the law would pass until it was all fulfilled, and He fulfilled it perfectly alright, we’re still going to try and go back in time and recreate things as they were before He even came..” I wonder if there isn’t some underlying desire to try and recapture some of the glory days of Solomon’s time, and if this isn’t actually what’s behind the desire to bring back animal-sacrifice. Are we trying to glory in the outer trappings of righteousness?
What happened, happened. He ended the need for sacrifices. He knocks on the door of our hearts. Our temple is not made of hands, but is of the Spirit. Jesus’ kingdom is within, otherwise He would have whistled for His military to save Him from a Roman crucifixion. This life isn’t a movie. I’m NOT saying that there aren’t some VERY well-intentioned and deeply sincere people advocating this. Only that if you do, you are sincerely wrong in believing God wants this.
Respectfully
Regarding animal sacrifices planned for any time in the future:
I believe this is a deranged idea and is insensitive to the Creator. The blood you retain from your sacrifices will eventually bring your souls to hell. Using God’s creatures in such a cult will eventually become your downfall.
So did Yeshua also abolish the Thanksgiving offering (Leviticus 3)?? So thanksgiving belongs also to the old covenant and is not relevant in the New Testament anymore?
In my understanding shadow pictures are always good – no matter if they point forward or backward, because they educate and teach us about Yeshua the Messiah.
Ruth Smith,
Sorry I’ve missed some of these posts, but one reason I referred to our friend Bo’s posts as dangerous was because they pointed in this very direction. The Messiah’s blood brought to the full what the animal sacrifices pointed towards, and no one who rightly understands the shedding of that blood would want to go back to animal sacrifices.
Again, I don’t have time to post on this more, but I have addressed it from time to time — but more than that, because it flies so directly in the face of passages like Hebrews 7-9.
Jesus paid it all! End of subject.
Thank you, Dr. Brown…!
Oh Dr. Brown,
If only you would read what I have written instead of reading into what I have written. I have said over and over that Y’shua’s sacrifice is the only one that can do the job, the animal sacrifices are only symbolic.
The real dangerous position is the one that subtly claims that Y’shua has done away with YHWH’s word. I have seen many depart the faith to Judaism when they have become convinced falsely that Y’shua did away with any of the Law of YHWH. I have seen many, that think grace covers unrepented of sin, backslide. This false grace doctrine goes right along with the false claim that Y’shua changed YHWH’s unchanging law. I say with John the Baptist and Y’shua, “REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND!”
Here is what the unbelievers said of Stephen:
Acts 6
9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.
12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
FALSE witnesses said Stephen spoke angainst the law. (vs.11) FALSE witnesses said that Stephen said that Y’shua would change the Law. (vs. 14)
My posts never say that I want to go back to animal sacrifices. They CLEARLY say that I trust Y’shua as the only sacrifice for sin that saves us.
Paul had rumors spread about him also:
Acts 21
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Paul upheld and kept the law. (vs.24) If Paul didn’t think that offering animals was abolished, (vs. 26) why should you or I? Please do not misrepresent me.
Shalom
Here’s my 2 cents.
I have read most of Dangerous Bo’s posts and I do not think he is talking about going back to animal sacrifices. I think he explained himself pretty well. I guess if we were looking to get a recantation from this heretic he just gave it. Other wise he has been saying the same thing all along.
Bo, can you give me your interpretation on the following passage?
Daniel 9
24 “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
*
Can you share what animal sacrifices were made for, and also do can you explain what “He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. ” means?
Ruth,
Ezekiel said it was coming back not me. Please read what he wrote. I gave the references above.
Shalom
Eric,
I will try to answer you on Sunday YHWH willing. I still have much to do today and I have gotten side tracked by this again. That’s what I get for checking back in between duties.
Shalom
Thank you Bo, and God bless you and continue on the path of righteousness!
This is my last post. until Sunday.
These are things I posted previously:
Bo’s quotes from Feb. 19 Line of Fire posts:
2/21 4:20 pm
Certainly, no one is saved by keeping Torah, but we are supposed to walk as Y’shua walked.
2/22 5:36 pm
I think He obeyed perfectly and was thus a valid sacrifice for our sins. No sacrifice for sin eliminates the requirement for us to stop sinning.
That He is the sacrifice for sin that the Levitical sacrifices pointed to there is no doubt. Those sacrifices, and the whole tabernacle service and priesthood are only pictures of the real thing that is in heaven.
2/22 5:37 pm
Concerning Hebrews 8:13
The greater context in Hebrews chapters 7-10 is about the Levitical priesthood being a shadow of the Messianic Priesthood. There is a change in the law if there is a new priesthood. That change is in the sacrifices: how they are offered, by whom they are offered, and where they are offered. There is a change in when they are offered also. Once! Because once this sacrifice is offered and applied, it changes the sinner’s heart. He no longer wants to sin. He no longer has to sin. He is a new creature. Old things have passed away, all things have become new.(2Co.5:17) But YHWH’s law does not change.(Ps.119:160; 1Pe. 1:22-25) Sin is still sin. Transgression of that law is still sin.(1Jo. 3:2-6) But the believer now loves YHWH’s word. He desires to obey the rules of the kingdom. This is what the law being written on our hearts means.
2/22 5:39 pm
Concerning Galatians 3:
We know that no one becomes righteous by attempting to keep the Torah. It is too late; we have already transgressed. We know that animal sacrifices only place a temporary covering on the matter. The only way to be made perfect is by Y’shua’s sacrifice.
If we love His law, we will want to know what it says and want to do it. This is what having it written on our hearts means. The motivation comes from within our new spirit instead of from a list written on stone or from a temporary priesthood tutoring us. The temporary priesthood is no longer necessary, but YHWH’s truth has not changed.
2/22 10:33 pm
You quote John 15
10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.
I wish to remain in the Father’s love by keeping His commandments too.
The Father and son are one and their commandments are the same.
2/23 12:25 pm
Romans 8 with my comentary in (….)
1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(There either is condemnation to those in Messiah that walk after the flesh or those that walk after the flesh are not in Messiah.)
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(We are free from the eternal death penalty for not obeying Torah. This does not mean that we can disobey YHWH’s rules and still be blameless.)
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(The Torah can’t save us, it only tells us what the correct behavior is. We need a saviour because we have broken Torah.)
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(If we truly walk after the Spirit we will keep (fulfill) what Torah says. This verse does not say that walking after the Spirit is a substitute for fulfilling Torah.)
2/28 6:03 pm
Serving in the oldness of the letter is trying to be righteous before YHWH by keeping all the rules. Serving in the newness of the Spirit includes keeping the rules because we love Him and desire to please Him. Those in the flesh cannot please Him because they are not subject to the law of YHWH.
Shabbat Shalom to you all!
Bo,
I have read enough of your posts to understand your position, and I find it dangerous based on what you have written and based on your misunderstanding of the new covenant — a misunderstanding that you exemplify in your posts about Hebrews in particular.
And I continually get emails from Jewish and Gentile believers (and former believers) who were once enjoying the blessings of God and worshiping Yeshua and then began to believe that they were obligated to obey the Sinai covenant in full (or, as fully as possible), and now they are confused and stifled in their spirituality to the point that a good number have fallen away. How painful it is when I hear about yet another Gentile believer who now denies Jesus and has converted to Judaism — and everyone of them that I have dealt with for years has followed the same path, a path that parallels what you advocate here, hence my warnings. (Of course, my heart is broken when this happens to a Jewish believer, but it is even more shocking when it happens to a Gentile believer who converts to Judaism in the process of denying Jesus.)
You can make light of my warnings by dubbing yourself “Dangerous Bo,” but I am gravely concerned when I hear anyone advocate that all believers are obligated to submit to the mandates of the Sinai covenant.
If only you could recognize the fullness of the new covenant and the dramatic transformation that has taken place with Yeshua’s death and resurrection — the fulfilling that He spoke of — and the reality of life in the Spirit, you would be pointing forward rather than backward.
You are more than welcome to call into my show to raise your issues, as I am actually taking more time on the forum here than I presently can, with other things pressing on me. Nevertheless, the topic is very important.
Dr. Brown,
The above posts of Bo’s seem to be clear. What is the problem with wanting to be obedient after one believes?
Ruth,
You wrote:
“The point I’m making from all of this is that no matter how much time and effort and great expense went into the construction of the first temple, God was adamant about what he wanted: righteous submission, or else the deal was broken. ”
Seems like Bo is an advocate of righteous submission. Is the deal broken with us if we do not enter into righteous submission?
Everyone,
I think you all are not seeing the others points or something.
Maybe if we all Calvanists we would not have to worry about falling away. This would fix the whole disagreement above:)
That should have been, if we all were calvanists.
A complete reading of all of Hebrews makes the New Covenant position on Torah and sacrifice for sins crystal clear to me.
I find it unconscionable that a future enactment of animal sacrifice should be viewed as a “symbol of what Jesus (Yeshua) did” — !
I don’t believe this movement toward literal animal sacrifice whether it is viewed “symbolically” or not, whether it “points backward to Yeshua” or not stems from the Holy Spirit at all.
It is certainly a dangerous departure from all that Paul wrote in Hebrews – why not read it in its entirety?
When Yeshua returns, He will want us to give an account of what we did to clothe the naked and feed the hungry. Will He be pleased with literal acts of animal sacrifice for the purpose of some symbolic show?
If we are commemorating Jesus’ death and atonement the way He wanted us to, we will not need to be “reminded” of His sacrifice in the future death of bulls! Luke 22:17-20
Surely this heavy yoke planned for the people if carried out will cause many to buckle under its weight and fall away from the truth.
This is more than backward-thinking, it is perverse!
“These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”
Matt. 15:8; Isaiah 29:13
Big Tex,
In short, the problem is that God emphatically has not called all believers today to submit to all the Sinaitic commandments, and to claim that those who do not follow the Mosaic Torah are in sin is to misrepresent God and to lay something on His people that He has not laid on them. That is certainly serious.
I have told Bo repeatedly that I am not getting into this in a major way in this forum yet, since I have not devoted a whole show to it, but he and others, of course, are perfectly free to post on this as long as it ties in with something that was said on the show that was relevant (as it is a rule for posting here that people stay within the subject matter, for obvious, practical reasons).
In the case at hand, I must say that folks really are getting off track (in terms of the show’s subject matters), which then distracts from other, relevant subjects (and discourages others from trying to join in), so at this point — Bo, Ruth, Big Tex and others — please bring this discussion back to a thread where it’s relevant. (I’ll post this again to be clear.)
To everyone posting here about Torah observance being binding today, please be kind enough to save your posts for the thread where that was discussed on the show, in keeping with our guidelines here to stay on subject. Otherwise, I repeat, this discourages others from joining in to discuss what we talked about on the show and also, perhaps unwillingly, actually takes over the forum here to discuss what’s on your mind as opposed to what each specific thread is about.
Thanks for complying with the house rules!
Yeshua’s / Yahweh’s words are NOT a heavy yoke, but manmade rules are. I’m not referring here to your house rules Dr. Brown (!! really not) – I just think it is perverse to call Yahweh’s / Yeshua’s words a heavy yoke while Yeshua referred to the oral law as such. Big confusion here again. This kind of stuff makes people want to leave Christianity.
Yes, it is the heart that matters, and the stuff that we are doing just for show we should forget right away. Yeshua / Yahweh never commanded us to do stuff just for show. And I’m not advocating for animal sacrifices here, I’m just fed up with this show mentality.
There was this movie “The Passion”. If this is just “a show” for you, then good night!
I’ve read your post and I will comply, Dr. Brown…
Erika,
Yahweh’s commandments are not burdensome, and I embrace with joy everything He commands me to do as a son today — and, quite emphatically, He has not laid the all requirements of the Sinai covenant on us today.
The NT is very clear on this — but once more, may I request that you abide by the guidelines here, and if you want to get into this discussion with folks on this forum, go back to a thread where this is relevant. Is that too much to ask?
Dr. Brown, I will do so – not posting here about this anymore. But since it seems that you don’t really have the time or interest to discuss this topic at all here on the Line of Fire I don’t really know if it makes sense to post about this on another thread in this forum. I personally think that there is a lot to talk about, but I’m not interested in a monologue with myself or Harmless Bo on this topic.
“… go back to a thread where this is relevant.”
Matt,
Concerning Tattoos part 1:
You bring up lots of good points. I’ll do my best to answer you straightforwardly and I will try to point you to the scripture references as my time permits. Please look up and read the scripture references. It is YHWH’s word that counts, not mine.
I will answer your post a little at a time so that it won’t be so long. I will quote you, then give my response. Please bare with the length as you bring up ideas and questions that cannot be dealt with, at least by me, in a brief manner.
You wrote:
Bo,
the problem I have with what you are saying is you don’t do it. The old testament also says to stone disobediant children. Do you do this? Was Paul saying this should be followed? The Old Testament says eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth (Ex. 21:24, Lev. 24:20 – only a couple of chapters after the one in question), but Jesus tells us not to follow this (Matt. 5:38)
My response:
I have had 5 teenagers and have 5 more coming up. “Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old (an old child) he will not depart from it.” (Pr. 22:6) If we take the raising of our children this seriously, we will have no need to bring our children before the elders. This is what this judgment of YHWH was supposed to do. (Cause parents to be diligent and save children from becoming worthy of death.)
There are plenty of rebellious teenagers out there and their parents have disobeyed this command but at this point in time, praise YHWH, I have not. The Tanakh actually says to use the rod to drive the foolishness from a child. This will prevent them from growing up to become drunkards and gluttons that are in need of stoning. No drunkard inherits the kingdom. (1 Co. 6:9-10)
It is my guess that the ones that disobey this “stone the children” law disobeyed YHWH long before that, or they would not find themselves in this predicament. You see, if we practice all that the Tanakh says, we do not end up in situations like this. Do you obey any Old Testament precept that is not in the New Testament? (That was a rhetorical question.)
The “eye for eye” passage in the OT is referring to a judicial act, not to taking revenge. It is pointing out that the punishment must suit the crime.
In the NT Y’shua is not referring directly to YHWH’s commandments but to the teaching of the religious leaders. This is why He uses the formula, “You have heard it said,” instead of, “It is written.” Matthew 5:20 (Our righteousness must exceed the scribes and Pharisees) is the context of the, “You have heard it said,” statements. He was contrasting what the scribes and Pharisees were teaching with the intent of YHWH’s law.
If Y’shua taught us not to obey any aspect of the law or the prophets, He would be excluded from being the greatest in the kingdom, (Mt. 5:17-20) not to mention, He would be a false teacher. (Isa. 8:20) Y’shua was referring to what the scribes and Pharisees taught about this scripture. They evidently taught to take revenge in court and maybe otherwise. The Torah forbids revenge. (Le. 19:18)
If Y’shua went against His Father’s word, He would be a rebellious son in need of stoning. Do you really think that the Son came down to tell us that His Father was wrong, or to act like Absalom subverting His Father’s rule? Or, is it possible that His main message was that His Father wanted more than outward obedience. Wash the inside first, so to speak. (Mt. 23:25-28) I would not want to drink from a contaminated cup if you only washed the inside or only the outside. The whole cup needs washed. Y’shua said just before this last quote, “these you should have done and not left the other undone.” (Mat. 23:23) He wants both.
(To be continued)
Matt,
Concerning Tattoos part 2:
(Continued from above)
You wrote:
Was Paul going against Jesus and saying we should not obey Jesus, but the Law instead. God forbid (to use Paul’s words).
My response:
This is a false dilemma. You do not have to disobey the Father to obey the Son. (Re. 12:17) They are one. (Jn. 17:14-17) And we are to live by every word of YHWH. (Mt. 4:4; De. 8:3) Paul said the law was good (Ro. 7:12-14) and that if we walk in the Spirit we will fulfil it. (Ro. 8:4) The carnal mind can’t submit itself to the Law. (Ro. 8:5-8) Messiah’s teaching is not against the law. (Ro. 3:31; Mt. 5:17-18; 1 Jo.3:4-10)
You wrote:
So the question is: What Old Testament Laws do we follow and which ones are done away with?
My response:
None are done away with until heaven and earth pass away. (Mat. 5:17-18; 1 Pe.1:23; ) Some may not apply to a given person, but you already do about 95% or more of them. I hope I do not think too highly of you. 🙂
You might not keep one of the 10 (Sabbath). So that’s 90% of those that you keep. You probably do not have unjust weights and measures. You probably do not drink blood. You might eat pork and shellfish but I doubt that you indulge in bats, vultures, maggots and humans.
You probably are not a Levite so those do not apply to you. You are not a woman so those are not for you either. I bet you would help your neighbor, and maybe even your enemy, get his ox(car?) up and running again. We can’t bring a tenth of our increase of our produce or livestock to a temple that is not there to priests and Levites that are not there either. But you might give 10% of your money to some ministry even though there is nothing specific in the NT about that. So you probably try to tithe even though that is OT. We can’t stone anyone without two eye-witnesses to a capital crime. You can’t pass that judgment unless you are a duly authorized judge. None are done away with, some just might not apply to our circumstance.
Which ones do you disobey is a better question. I am sure the list is short. Probably only the dietary laws, Sabbath and feasts, and a few others.
The real question is why do you keep the ones you keep? Is it out of love for YHWH and your neighbor or because you grew up in a society that had a Biblical base? Do you keep food laws because of your own preference, for health reasons, or because you trust YHWH to tell you the truth and then submit to His ideas of holiness. (My personal opinion is that pig tastes good and grasshoppers are gross. YHWH has the opposite opinion. By faith I do it His way since “His thoughts and ways are higher than mine.”)
The reason you do what you do proves who you serve. (Ro.6:16; Lu. 16:10-13) “He that is faithful in the little things is faithful in the big ones.” If it is because of my health, my reputation, my appearance, my tastes, my preferences, my culture, my church, my etc., that I do these things, my master is me not YHWH.
(To be continued)
Matt,
Concerning Tattoos part 3:
(Continued from above)
You wrote:
In the New Testament Jesus died and took the punishment for our sin, and then sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in us. We are not like the Jews in the Old Testament who had to live with external moments with God, we are granted access to live permantely with God in us.
My response:
You know those guys in the OT? They were offered the gospel.(He. 3:19-4:2) A few even accepted from time to time. YHWH’s desire was for them all to be prophets, priests just like it is His desire for us. (Nu. 11:24-29; Ex. 19:3-6; 1 Pe. 2:9-10; Ac.2:38-39) It wasn’t Him that prevented it, it was their lack of faith. We need to be careful that we do not also fall after the same manner of unbelief / disobedience. (He. 3:10-15) YHWH gave, and still gives, His Spirit to those that want Him and want to be faithful. (Ac. 5:29-32; Jo. 14:15-17) The Spirit being poured out in these last days is a matter of scope (all flesh) not one of availability. (Joel 2:28-29)
You wrote:
The Law in the Old Testament dealt with physical things, like murder, adultery, food, cleanliness, etc….but as Jer. 33 tells us the law under the new covenant is one written on the hearts. Jesus tells us that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him (dealing with the washing of hands), but what comes out.
My response:
Is it wrong to not murder? The law reveals to us what righteous behavior is. (Ro. 7:7) What law? YHWH’s unchanging law. Y’shua also said that the religious leaders were making the commandments of YHWH of none effect by their traditions, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. (Mt. 15:1-11) They worshiped in vain because they invented their own way instead of obeying the scripture. True worshipers obey and go by the scripture. Do you think that the tradition of Sunday church has made YHWH’s Sabbath of no effect? Has the unbiblical Christmas replaced YHWH’s Feast of Tabernacles? Obviously, what is in our hearts is going to come out. (Lk 6:45) If YHWH’s law is written on our hearts like Jeremiah said, what should come out? Obedience. (Ro. 2:13-15,26-29)
You wrote:
O.T. – Murder (physical) N.T – Hate (heart)
O.T. – Adultery (physcial) N.T – Lust (heart)
The physical O.T laws became N.T heart attitudes that birth obedience.
My response:
I agree that the NT heart attitudes should birth obedience. If I have the NT heart to love my neighbor, I will not murder or go after his wife. If I have the NT heart attitude to love YHWH, I will not break His (He does call it His) Sabbath or neglect His times of celebration or eat things that He says are detestable to Him.
(To be continued)
Matt,
Concerning Tattoos, last part:
(Continued from above)
You wrote:
So what about Lev. 19 – Verse 26-29 deal with pagan worship. In the N.T. we find out that worship is not physical things (like music and clapping – even though these are good to be used in worship) but rather worship is from the heart. It is spirit and truth from the inside. Jesus tells the woman at the well that it doesn’t matter what mountain they worship on, the issue is knowing who you are worshipping and having your heart set on loving God.
My response:
We know that worship is everything we do. We are not supposed to do the things that pagans did to worship their gods in worship to YHWH. (De. 12:29-32) (This includes not using pagan holidays like Xmas and Easter to celebrate YHWH’s works.) So if the pagans got tattoos to worship their gods, we should not get them and think that YHWH approves of this kind of thing being done to honor Him.
Y’shua did not say it doesn’t matter which mountain, for at that time there was a specified place of sacrifice. He said that YHWH seeks those who worship in spirit and truth. This is a declaration that one’s heart must be right and his actions also. Doing the right things with the right motive. A true heart will seek the true way to worship. We should not add to or diminish from YHWH’s word. (De. 12:32) It is perfect. (Ps.19:7-14) It is spirit and truth, not spirit only and not truth only.
You wrote:
It is no longer cutting the corners of your beard that is pagan worship, but if you are cutting your beard with a heart to worship false gods, it is wrong. The same goes for tatoos. A tatoo in and of itself is not wrong. It is the motive behind the tatoo, and what the tatoo depicts that make it wrong of not.
My response:
So let’s try this same logic with a different subject:
It is no longer a man putting on a woman’s clothes that IS sin, but if a man cross dresses with a heart to look like a woman it is wrong. The same goes for sex change operations. Getting a sex change operation in and of itself is not wrong. It is the motive behind getting the sex change operation and what the sex change operation depicts that makes it wrong or not. Obviously, this is nonsense.
You wrote:
Getting a tatoo that is symbolic of Christ and my deep relationship with Him is not something that is pagan worship. So I would not be breaking the Law that is written on my heart.
My response:
Continuing in this logic we get:
Going to bed with my neighbors wife that is symbolic of the deep love between a man and a woman is not adultery. So I would not be breaking the law that is written on my heart if I loved the woman.
But it would still be braking YHWH’s commandment to commit adultery. So who’s law is really written on my heart in this case?
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
In light of this passage, we may not get a tattoo as a symbol to honor or love Messiah. YHWH says it plainly, “Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God.”
You wrote:
I hope that makes sense. That is my take on it, but of course I am always open to hear other perspectives in the never-ending journey for truth.
My response:
As you can see, I do not think it makes sense, but I understand where you are coming from and realize that there are a lot of ideas out there that do not hold up to the standards of scripture or even to the standards of logic.
Let’s go one step further than we hitherto have gone in this discussion. Y’shua’s “but I say unto you” takes us deeper than the mere teaching of man. It even takes us deeper than the face value of the commandments of YHWH. Paul does this for us in 1 Thes. 5:21-24.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
What if we didn’t even do things that might be considered evil. Tattoos have been considered, and still are by many, to be evil and worldly. If we look into a topic (vs. 21), and find that it might appear evil and therefore abstain from it (vs. 22), and it were to be of great value to YHWH making us completely holy(sanctified=set apart), isn’t that end result what we are after?
There is a passage of scripture that is kind of like the holy version of getting a tattoo to symbolize our commitment to our master. Numbers 15:37-40 Read it Try it It works It is a great witnessing tool too People have even been known to get healed when they touch these. (Mal. 4:2; Mt. 9:20-22; 14:34-36)
You can be forgiven for getting a tattoo. I know many that have. YHWH still loves you and will accept you as one of his holy priests. You can be part of His spotless bride if you let Him cleanse you by the washing of water by the word. (Ep. 5:24-27) His word is truth.
May YHWH enlighten you with His truth. Keep pressing on toward the mark of the high calling in Messiah.
“Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of YHWH.”
Shalom
Eric,
I’m not sure about getting into the topic you raised as it doesn’t quite fit the guidelines of being on the topic of the line of fire show for this day. Dr. Brown encouraged us to find a thread that is on topic if we were going to discuss other things than what was brought up on the show.
Is there a thread that you would like to go to that fits this kind of discussion? Tell me the date of it and I’ll try to answer you there if you would still like my take.
Shalom
Sorry about getting off track.
Bo,
I am working on my response to you, but I have been busy these past couple of days. I will respond though.
Matt,
Thanks! I’ll check back here from time to time. I look forward to you comments.
Shalom