669 Comments

  1. Ben KC

    The pronoun of John 1.3-4 refers to the logos, which is an “it” not a “him.” Hence, the last phrase of John 1.1 should not be translated, “the Word was God.” Moffatt has “the logos was divine.” The New English Bible has, “what God was, the Word was,” which perhaps best carries the sense.

  2. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ” (ESV, NIV, NKJV, NAS, ASV…) which perhaps best carries the sense.

  3. Chuck,
    I’m sorry that you don’t believe the Scriptures. It’s very clear from John 1:14 that the Word became flesh, yet you continue to disbelieve because you personally don’t see how that’s possible, as if God in His miraculous ways couldn’t figure out how to do something like this. He can do whatever He pleases and verse 14 is clear that the Word became flesh.

    I have no argument that John 1:1 is speaking of the Word, but it’s clear that at some point in time, God called His Word “Son”. It’s also clear that in verse 2, the Word is called “He”, and that all things were created through “him”. There’s plenty of other Scripture that says all things were created through Jesus also. Therefore, Jesus = Word. There’s no running away from this.

  5. Michael K

    It’s very clear from John 1:14 that the Word became flesh…

    We agree, it previously was not a being, it became a human being. This is why this whole gospel was written, to prove to you and me and anyone else reading that Jesus is that Messiah spoken of by prophets by that same eternal “word of God” since history began [John 20.31; cp. Gen 3.15].

    Ben KC

    Are you trying to prove that you can prove anything by quoting isolated verses from scripture?

  13. Chuck,
    You either missed or completely ignored one of the points I made from my previous post. John 1:2 calls the Word “He”. I get the feeling you do not believe John 1 to be divinely inspired because it is becoming a stumbling block to you regarding Jesus’ divine nature. Reminds me of muslims who claim our Scriputres to be corrupted. They can’t accept the divine nature of Jesus either.

  14. Michael K

    I just told you that I and many others do not see the English translation of the original greek in regards to the logos being a “he”, it should be an “it”. As per most translations actually had it before the very biased KJV came along!

    Don’t believe me, check it out!!

    Ben KC

    I am able to choose to stop “listening” and ignore you though.

  15. That’s well put Chuck.

    Ben KC,

    Yes God is the only creator and “though it (logos) all things were made”.

    Michael K,

    Lots of people have denied that Jesus is God, most importantly Jesus himself! Jesus said to his Father “that they may know you the ONLY true God”. I understand Augustine wrestled and re-interpreted that verse to include Jesus as part of the ‘only God’.

    Don’t you think a good rule of bible interpretation would be to take the clear and explicit texts and interpret the ones that are less clear by the explicit texts, instead of vise versa?

    I don’t have a problem with John 1 interpreted into English using the O.T. as a presupposition, instead of trinitarian ideas. Logos is ‘it’ not ‘he’.

    I do put trust in N.T. scripture, just not the spin from trinitarian translators and interpretations.

    As a Jew, I can’t read 75% of the bible. find it to be fiercely monotheistic with God’s personal Name being used some 7800+ times with probably 10000 singular personal pronouns and singular verbs, then come to your version of the N.T. and go and re-interpret all of the O.T. to fit my new found ideology. That would be sinning against God from Deut 6:4 and Deut 13:6-8.

    As a Jew, one of the reasons I do believe the N.T. is true is because of the strict monotheistic statements it makes.

    Jesus told the Samaritan woman the Jews know who they worship in John 4:22

    Jesus agreed with the Jewish scribe about the most important commandment in Mark 12:28-29 … the central creed of the Jews.

    Paul said “to us there is one God, the Father” in 1 Cor 8:6

    And James said even the demons believe there is one God in James 2:19

    James to make it even more clear saying “you believe there is one God, you do well”. He didn’t even put it as “you believe God is one”, which many error to translate God is one complex unity.

    C’mon guys, even the demons believe this, and tremble… it’s time to get on the same page as the God and Father of our Lord Messiah Yeshua.

    There is one God, YHVH, blessed be His Name forever !

    Reading 75% of the bible

  17. I believe Christians can be Trinitarians if they want to and still be with Christ (see John 6:56) and have Christ in them, though it is not a requirement of Christ, in my opinion.

    I have never seen him teach from scripture that one had to be of the Trinitarian discipline in order to follow him, though much of what is taught by many a Trinitarian is of Christ.

    I do not consider myself a Trinitarian and do not plan on attempting to defend it’s beliefs.

    I believe Jesus was with God from everlasting (see Micah 5:2) and that Proverbs chapter 8 is prophecy concerning Jesus which goes back in time. I believe prophecy may do that. I believe there are prophetic words in Proverbs 8 that tell us about Jesus who was with God before the world was made by the Word which received the Word from the Word, and by the Word did speak the Word and see the creation come into being by that power of the Word which was given to the Word which it received from the Word, as the Word was one with the Word.

    It’s a bit of a mystery that is revealed by Jesus. I believe God is my Saviour as well as Jesus. I trust that both the Father and the Son are watching over me right now.

  18. I wonder if anyone has considered deism or just plain abandoning the bible all together at least? After all, it’s not the word of God revealed within it’s pages, but rather, someone else’s claim of it being the word of God. Unless god reveals to each of us his will individually, none of us have ever heard from God. God certainly doesn’t speak through the pages of silly ancients with their folklore about bears mauling 42 young men to death simply because they referred to Elisha as “bald head”. That would be pretty jealous and wrathful of God to do such a thing. Oh wait, isn’t that what the book claims are his attributes? My mistake. Still not my God though!

  19. Ray,

    Also, no need for a book character telling me to hate my family members. (Matthew 10:34-37, Luke 14:26). I love my family more than any book character. I will not put “Jesus” before those I can see, feel, touch and know exist. Anyone who does so is delusional…

    http://www.deism.com

    God gave us reason, not the bible and religion…

  20. Chuck and Rich,

    Great comments by you! Can anyone tell me what happened to Johan Rabie? With Kermit and Dr Brown’s previous debate he used to comment quite a lot.

    Regards,

    Jaco

  21. Dr. Brown,
    I was wondering if you read my comment from Feb 14 around 8 am. It looks like it got lost in the shuffle. Or maybe it was not worth your time or consideration? God knows the truth. Thanks from one little living stone.

  24. Carmen,

    I really enjoy your posts. Tell me, why don’t you post on kingdomready? Your imput will me much appreciated.

    Jaco

  25. Dr. Brown,
    Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus – Volume 2 is excellent! Just got it and making my way through it now. Your research in this book sheds incredible light on the truth of Jesus. I hope everyone here gets a chance to read it and decide for themselves.

  26. Michael K.,

    Thanks so much! Obviously, I put a lot of effort into both the research and the dialog with rabbis over a period of many years, so I’m gratified to know that it is of help to you.

  27. Anyone care to explore the issue of proving a historical Jesus? Why do no contemporary historians ever mention him? Why is “Nazareth” never mentioned in any epistle? Why are so many Hebrew texts misquoted by the NT? Why elevate this particular ancient text over another other than inbred teaching? Why not the Epic of Gilgamesh over the story of Noah and the ark? Why did the bible God allow bears to maul 42 young men to death simply because they called Elisha “bald head”? Why would anyone worship a God that would slaughter infants? Why would anyone with sanity worship a God that creates life and destroys it purposely? Anyone? Anyone?

  29. Andrew,
    Is there a historical Jesus? You’ve got to be kidding me! Go read Josephus among many other historians of the time. I suppose you don’t believe George Washington existed either?

  31. Andrew,

    If you’re looking for answers and honestly searching for truth, I can put you in touch with folks who would love to help you in your search. If you’re here to mock God’s Word and our beliefs, that is your prerogative, but it would not be a good used of time to engage you.

    To address just one point, however, this one volume alone will answer your questions about the historicity of Jesus as attested outside the NT documents: http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Outside-New-Testament-Introduction/dp/0802843689/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267227147&sr=1-6.

    For the broader question of the historical trustworthiness of the gospels, see now: http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Jesus-Gospels-Craig-Keener/dp/0802862926/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267227204&sr=1-1.

    If you’re honestly wanting to know the truth, those books, written by solid scholars, will answer your questions.

  32. Andrew, there was a man named Job who said some things about God. He so thought he was right that he wanted it to be written ingraved in a rock and filled with lead. Now we can read his book.

    One day maybe we will read yours.

  33. If we want to prove Jesus, we have to do what he says.
    If what we say about him is wrong, we will not be blessed,
    but if what we say about him is correct, we are filled with joy.
    One has to prove him for one’s self.

  34. Michael K, Josephus NEVER mentions Nazareth or a man from there. Besides, we need historians who were alive during the alleged life of Jesus. None of the gospels were written during the life of Jesus. All we have are copies of copies of documents of unknown authors. You need to quote a contemporary historian if you’re going to prove the existence of this person. Otherwise, why not also believe any other Greek myth or any other non-historical writing? George Washington existed because contemporary HISTORIANS say so. Roman history never records the death of any “Jesus” at the hands of a “Pilate”. This should trouble you. What you have is a collection of documents written long after the alleged time frame of the character in question, by unknown authors, assembled into a canon nearly 300 years afterwards. To claim that anything in the bible is the direct inspired word of God is hearsay at best. It’s not God speaking, but the writings of other people claiming what God said. That’s not good enough for this practical free thinker.

  35. Ray and others, why do we have to “do what Jesus says”? You’re taking the word of a third party author. Why didn’t Jesus write any historical documents? Where are all the letters of Jesus? He was human right? Hearsay doesn’t hold up in court. If you’re charged with a crime, would you like it if all the witnesses against you were non-eye witnesses who just gave the word of other people as evidence to convict you? As for that alleged word, what’s up with Matthew 10:34-37 and Luke 14:26? Hate your family? God forbid!

  36. Erika, what is God’s love? Is it fulfilled when Jesus talks about gnashing of teeth and hell fire? What kind of God creates beings and then punishes his creation for what he gave them the capability of doing? Kind of arrogant don’t you think? Was it a loving God that cursed the 42 young boys with death from 2 bears? Was it a loving God that wiped out all the Egyptian children at passover? Was it a loving God that allowed Jesus to forgive an adulterating whore and keep her from being punished as his “Father”‘s law says, while simultaneously striking Ananias and his wife dead for holding back money? Sorry, but the stories don’t add up to anything logical and righteous. The woman who breaks one of the ten commandments was forgiven but the people who kept some land sale money back (perfectly legal by the way) had to die because they didn’t “give it up” to the apostles?

    LOL!

  37. Andrew, this is boring. Don’t you have some other stuff to come up with? Discussions like that can kill me. So good bye everyone, and have still a great time.

    Shalom,

    Erika

  38. Sorry, didn’t mean to bore, just mean to question the book I was raised to believe as “the truth” when in reality, it may not be. Those of us who aren’t afraid of the spirit of inquiry tend to ask questions, thoroughly examine evidence, apply the scientific method and see if a document is all it’s cracked up to be. I’ve found that the bible really isn’t a “good” thing after all. It’s the cause of a lot of pain and separation among people worldwide. Perhaps someone could just comment on a few of the historical criticisms? I would hope that maybe someone could quote one contemporary historian!

  39. Andrew,

    Because I so deeply believe in the spirit of critical inquiry, I didn’t study in seminary but rather in secular schools with the secular professors –some of them quite hostile to the Scriptures. I would honestly question, however, how deeply you really want to study out the relevant isssues. I referenced two scholarly studies that fully address the questions about the historical documentation about Jesus outside the NT as well as the historicity of the gospels themselves. Have you read them? Have you investigated the information in detail, or are you happy just to spout some information from the internet?

    Please also tell me about the methodology of the ancient Roman historians and how much they reported about contemporary events, as well as which of their works have survived until this day.

    Also, how about going around the world as I have — more than 100 trips overseas — and meeting the countless millions of people whose lives have been wonderfully transformed through the Jesus you deny and the Scriptures you reject.

    I pray that you will truly come to know God and learn to bow down before Him. He alone is ultimately good.

  40. A man must be born again to receive the things of God. To those who are not born again it’s foolishness unto them. It’s Ok to ask
    God if he will give him the new birth by the holy spirit. Jesus said
    that God is good and will not give a man something evil if he asks for something good.

    It’s Ok to ask God if you should believe in Jesus. Ask him and see what he says. God won’t deny him.

    Andrew, did you ever ask God if you should believe in Jesus?
    Are you willing to do so and share with us what you have found of God concerning this?

  41. Andrew,

    Somehow my last post didn’t make it here, so I’ll ask again: Do you actually want answers to your questions, or do you simply want to quote the latest bit of internet information?

    The sources I cited, above, will answer all serious questions about historical documentation about Jesus outside the NT.

    Also, for the record here, please answer a few questions for me: 1) Who were the major Roman historians in NT times, and which of their writings remain? 2) Was it their custom to report contemporary news or to write historical reflections years after the events? 3) How does the attestation of the NT record line up with the attestation of other ancient sources?

    If you answer these questions correctly, you’ll know that the evidence is decidedly on the side you so zealously reject.

    The fact is that I never went to Bible college or seminary, studying only with those who did not believe what I believed, allowing me to be challenged every step of the way. God’s truth stands firm and unshakable!

    As for the influence of the Scriptures worldwide, come to India with me and find out. Visit China with my friends and learn more. Go to Sudan, into the midst of hellish suffering because of radical Muslim oppression, and find out what Jesus and His Word have done for the people there.

    And then be willing to humble yourself and come to know the God you heard about but probably never encountered before.

  42. I listened to a bit of Anthony Buzzard’s conversation with Michael Brown and found it informative and interesting. It was also quite cival.

    I believe Jesus did in fact exist with God as a being, as his Son from everlasting. I think we can as Christians defend the Lord’s
    existence with God prior to his conception in the womb of his mother Mary. Some may see him during that time in the beginning
    as the wisdom of God or as the word of God. I don’t think it to be a difficult thing to see him as his Son. See Proverbs 8 and consider if some of this is prophetically speaking of the one we call Jesus, our Messiah or Christ.

    Jesus is the bread (the word of life) that came down from heaven and the bread that he gave us to eat is his flesh.

    I can not come down from a roof unless I was at first up on the roof.

    I do not plan on defending the Trinity doctrine. I believe there are
    Christians who will leave the town of Trinitary behind to go unto Zion.

    Sometimes people build a monument to the Lord and worship it
    more than the word God has given them to do. Are such people
    as the officers of the Law in James Ryle’s dream/ vision The Sons Of Thunder? which I read from Andrew Strom’s revival school site.
    It was on the front page under “Articles” near the bottom.

    To defend the truth of scripture is good. I believe we are called of God to do that and to win souls from whatever err they have fallen into. To do this we must listen carefully and walk carefully
    also.

    This radio conversation between Michael Brown and Anthony Buzzard seems to be a good example of doing that work.

    There is a verse from Isaiah 44 that challenged me due to my understanding of scripture. Here it is:

    Isaiah 44:24
    Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    I believe Jesus was with God from the beginning and that God created all things that are by him that we can see, and the invisble things also. All that God created was created through Jesus Christ. I believe the scriptures support that.

    So how does Isaiah 44:24 fit with what I believe about this?

    I do not believe God was telling Israel through his prophet that
    he doesn’t have a Son with him. Nor was he saying that he didn’t plan on sending him some time for the salvation of the world. I don’t believe God is saying that he is Jesus and that Jesus is him
    necessarily.

    I wonder if God is saying that he kept the mystery about his Son hidden from the eyes of the majority of people, though some of this was revealed to his prophets, and this Son whom he did send was as he himself is, and that there was nothing in him that was not of God himself, that God sees Jesus as an extention of himself at times, as his hand, or his arm.

    I’ve heard Christians say that God is a person. I don’t know if I will defend that or not. I believe God is a being.

    I used to watch a lot of the TV show Star Trek and on the program the star ship Enterprise encountered a lot of other “life
    forms”. Some of them were quite strange. Most of them were human actors, but some of these “life forms” were not. They were
    shown as special effects.

    I don’t think it necessary to be a Trinitarin to be a Christian.
    I believe it’s possible to eat of the Lord’s flesh and drink of his blood without being one. One who does so has Christ dwelling in him and he in Christ. I do not believe Jesus dwells only in a place called Trinitary. It might be a town he may visit, pass through from time to time, I don’t know. I don’t think he makes it his home.

    I trust that one day I will find out for sure.

  43. Ray,

    I wouldnt recommend Andrew Strom. He is very oriented in his “spiritual discernment” and very controversial.

  44. Ray, the Bible is clear about who Jesus is. Scripture doesnt make is sound mysterious that we could never find out until we get to heaven. To say you can be Christian and can accept any teachings such as “Jesus is not God” or “Jesus is only a prophet” is very dangerous. The question is which Jesus are we serving. Can we accept any “Jesus” and be Christian. There are many people down the history who claimed to be the Messiah of the Bible which Scripture warns about (false messiah). There are also cults such as Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.. that believe in their “Jesus” and claim to be Christian. I hope you get my point.

  45. Ray

    I believe Jesus did in fact exist with God as a being, as his Son from everlasting.

    Where is this preexistent being of “God the Son” in the Hebrew scriptures?

    Jesus is the bread (the word of life) that came down from heaven and the bread that he gave us to eat is his flesh. I can not come down from a roof unless I was at first up on the roof.

    Does “every good [perfect] gift” or “wisdom” literally “come down from heaven” as well? If so where did they land?

    The reason the councils and synods took hundreds of years
    to develop the doctrine of Incarnation is that it is not stated in Scripture, and the verses used to support it can be explained without resorting to a doctrine that bears more similarity to pagan mythology than biblical truth. Teaching the Jews that God came down in the form of a man would have completely offended those living at the time of Christ and the Apostles, and greatly contradicted their understanding of the Messianic Scriptures…This doctrine is derived most prominently from the Gospel of John, and in particular from the phrase in John 1:14 (KJV): “and the Word was made flesh.” But was “the word” synonymous with “the Messiah” in Jewish understanding? Hardly. The Jews would have understood it to mean “plan” or “purpose,” that which was clearly and specifically declared in Genesis 3:15 — a “seed” of a woman who would destroy the works of the Devil. This plan of God for the salvation of
    man finally “became flesh” in Jesus Christ. This verse is not establishing a doctrine of Incarnation contrary to all prophetic expectations, nor a teaching of preexistence. It is teaching of God’s great love in bringing into existence His plan to save mankind from their sin. Mark H. Graeser, John A. Lynn, John W. Schoenheit, One God and One
    Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith    , Indianapolis: Christian Educational Services, 2003, p. 353.

  46. Dr. Brown, the problem I have is also with what is written in the NT texts themselves as well, which don’t add up and harmonize with the OT texts. For instance, why does Jesus say specifically that he “did not come to bring peace, but a sword, to divide mother against daughter, and son against father”? This is surely not the words of the “prince of peace” if that is his title. (Matthew 10:34-37). The New Testament, in my opinion seems to be misquoting the OT in many ways as well. “He shall be called a Nazarene” – no where found in the OT prophecies. It seems that everything prophesied about the OT Messiah isn’t found in the NT accounts of Jesus. Instead, we have a similar theme that relates to the many solar deities of myth. Many “savior” figures have died and rose, many are virgin born sons of gods. These ideas flourished throughout the region in ancient Rome, very similar to the story of the Mithras. Even Justin Martyr wrote that the tales were no different than what they had already heard, and explained it away by saying that “Satan” copied the stories before they happened. No this has nothing to do with college or the internet, just a basic observation of texts. The texts simply do not agree with what the churches teach. Eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a deity is surely against everything the Torah teaches in the OT. Depending on which gospel you read, you get a different Jesus too – there are only 4 in the bible, but many outside the canon that were not included by the church fathers. How do you know which texts actually come from “God”?

  47. Ben, which Jesus do you listen to? The one who said he was never secretive to the authorities? Or the one was secretive with his disciples? The one who breaks the Sabbath, or the one who upholds it? The one who is a virgin born god-man, or the one who is supposed to be a descendant of David, fully human?

    Ultimately we must remember that in all of this, we are not reading the direct word of God on paper. We’re reading what other people wrote, people we don’t even know. For unless God himself reveals to us which doctrine is his, all of the revealed religions are giving us hearsay evidence.

    I have not heard from God or asked God anything, no, because I don’t know who or what I am talking to. I have never heard any direct two-way contact back in the form of language, so I cannot honestly with my heart tell you Dr. Brown that I’ve talked to God, no. Until God or Jesus actually open up their mouths and speak to me, I will have to continue to use my foolish god-given intellect and surmise that texts are simply texts, and the “word of God” hasn’t been heard by anyone today.

  48. Dr. Brown, also, before going to India with you or seeing how the influence of today’s evangelists (not necessarily the scriptures) as influenced people, I’d like to examine some evidence and see if we can make sure that what we’re reading is 100% authentic and reliable. Is that asking too much? Or do I need blind faith in the things that don’t make logical sense?

  49. To the others: Why do we need salvation or to be “saved” from “sin”? To those of us who are not currently religious in any way, don’t go to church, don’t believe in the bible, and certainly don’t believe that guilt trips are a necessary thing, it sounds like foolishness indeed. That’s why the authors put that text in there, to even more entrap you into a religious concept. It’s a rock and a hard place. You’re supposed to feel guilty if you abandon this stuff, but if you never had it to begin with, there’s nothing to feel guilty about.

    I feel really good spending time with family each day for instance. I love my parents, my siblings, my friends, (you know, the people I can see and trust and love). To believe the words of an invisible book character and elevate him and his philosophy over what I actually know I have is ludicrous indeed.

    Jesus teaches you to hate your parents. Are you going to listen to him?

    Luk 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

    This is one of the worst statements in the bible. It’s one of the most negative things I have heard uttered in literature.

    I will not listen to it!

  50. Hey Andrew,

    you are free to listen to whatever you want to listen, I don’t have any problem with that, but I just want to remind you that the Greek texts of the “New Testament” that we have today were originally spoken in Hebrew – neither in Greek nor in English.

    The text you refer to in Luke 14:25 and further is about counting the cost before making a decision. It’s not about hating people.

    My advice to you Andrew: It is wise to count the costs before making a decision.

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