65 Comments

  1. Hi Dr. Brown,

    I enjoyed your show today. I pray that God will open doors for you to present the Gospel to your long-haired neighbors.

    We all need Jesus praise god.

    You mentioned the doctrine of the Nicolaitans today and how no one really knows what the Lord meant when He referenced them. I read a short book recently by Dale M. Sides that addresses this subject and I thought he had an interesting take. Mr. Sides suggests that Jesus is speaking of a religious spirit that causes ministers (false apostles) to dominate people (nikao laos). The book is called the Three Doctrines of Damnation. You might check it out…

    God Bless,
    Greg

  2. Greg,

    That’s actually one of the theories I was trying to address today but bungled the words and then corrected it (not triumph of the laity but triumph over the laity). From everything I’ve read, however, I do not believe this can be substantiated, although it’s often used in the house church movement.

    Thanks for the good word about the show!

  3. Dr. Brown, I have to say today (as always) was an interesting show because I did not believe in tongues and had prayed for a long time regarding this manifestation. I had friends that attempted to usher this gift into my life (believe it or not). I watched many crazy things with tv preachers spouting off and calling them gifts of God. I also went to one of the Azuza gatherings. I studied l Corinthians and wrestled with what I was seeing as being from God or at least how it was being portrayed. Well, God blessed me and allowed me to see the gift of tongues manifested exactly as l Corinthians says, as Gods words describes. I had prayed for this to be revealed to me specifically according to His word.

    About 30 years ago I was sitting in a service as a new believer. Again, I was praying secretly during the service when a young man rose up from the pew. He was in a trance-like state, his eyes were rolled back and he began to speak in an unknown tongue. My eyes widened with amazement. He lowered to his seat. Then, another guy rose up similarly. The whole trans-like state – identically. He begins to speak in English – interpretation. The Pastor was calm but excited and praised God for what we had just experienced. I knew if God was real He did not need a bunch of blabbering people really chanting instead of speaking in tongues. No reving up, no loud wailing or the like. Which is how I see Jesus doing all that He did when He was here. I have only heard of one other person express something similar. Do I think I am special or something – NO! But I do believe God was gracious. I think it also shows that our selfish nature tries to pull God down to our level be it consciously or not and that manifests in many ways. The result being things God means one way but man exemplifies another way God really did not intend.

    You made a comment today regarding Apostles. I am not sure how coming to the Elders for prayer (which is what you were quoting) relates to Apostles being here today. Maybe you can give me some further insight on this. Were you saying Apostles have continued from the time of Jesus to today? Are you saying the gifts continue unchanged as well?

    Scripture: 1 Corinthians 12:10, 1 Corinthians 14:26, 2 Peter 1:20

    Thank you for your representing Christ well.

    Prayerfully,
    Steve – Kaysville

  4. Hey Steve,

    Here is something for thought. Are apostle’s like prophet’s meant to always speak the words of God through divine inspiration, or can they be simply messengers too which is the definition of the word? If they do not necessarily have to speak divinely inspired words of God all the time (though preaching truth) it is very possible that some missionaries are apostle’s. They are sent out after all, and many in the past have been pioneers in bringing the gospel to people. They could also simply be evangelists. But I think that if the office of Apostle still is in operation today then its probably missionaries and pastors who have a very missional outlook through church planting and bible teaching who are today’s apostle’s as these were the trademarks of an apostle even in the NT. There is a difference between the evangelizing of Philip (one of the seven deacons) and the evangelizing and continual teaching that Paul did as an Apostle.

  7. “In Classical rabbinical literature, Mount Sinai became synonymous with holiness; indeed, it was said that when the Messiah arrives, God will bring Sinai together with Mount Carmel and Mount Tabor, rebuild the Temple upon the combined mountain, and the peaks would sing a chorus of praise to God.”

    I read the above on Wiki and don’t know if this true, but if it is I find it interesting.

    Jesus was supposedly transfigured on Tabor. Moses and Elijah were with Him on the mountain. Moses is biblically connected with Sinai, and Elijah with Carmel.

    If the above rabbinical belief is true, then perhaps it either already happened on Tabor during the Transfiguration or the Transfiguration was additional prophesy of a future end-time event.

  8. Dr. Brown,

    I think the birth imagery like you said is similar, also it sorts of puts Isaiah 54 in context for us at least. Seems like the woman in rev 12 could be the heavenly jerusalem-the mother of us all. What do you think?

  9. Dr. Brown,

    I would appreciate it if you could answer just a few questions for me.

    In Acts, could it be any clearer that it is talking about earthly languages (”we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” Acts 2:11 ”because everyone heard them speak in his own language.” Acts 2:6)? Same goes for 1 Corinthians 12-14. Also, 1 Corinthians 14 says ”Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers”, how could they be a sign to unbelievers unless they are languages understood by those unbelievers? Earthly languages. And they are for the unbelievers yet in the Churches that believe in them they are used amongst the believers………why? Also in 1 Cor 14 it says, ”If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret” so it should be three at the most speaking in tongues, it has to be 1 at a time, and it has to be interpreted! I have never seen this done before. It is always everyone at the same time, while it should be how scripture says because as it says in the same chapter in verse 37, these are commandments of God and they are not to be taken lightly, ”If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”. And if it is some secret heavenly language so the devil cant understand, why would Paul demand that it be interpreted? Another question is, what about Matthew 6? Christ told us how to pray, ”Our Father…..”, He never spoke of some heavenly prayer language and furthermore, He said ”And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.” As it says in part 5 of the video, if ”ra ba ka sha shun da rey taka rey ta…” (Dont take any offence by this, I was just making a point) is not vain repitition I dont know what is. I will just bring up 1 more thing I would like for you to answer or else I’ll never stop (lol), Romans 8:26, which clearly states that when the Holy Spirit intercedes (which is what those who speak in tongues believe is happening when they are praying in tongues) it intercedes with groanings which cannot be uttered, that means there would be no noise coming from the mouth, so how could speaking in tongues be the Holy Spirit interceding if there are sounds being uttered? I would appreciate it if you could answer these questions for me.

    Take care and may God bless you

    Also, if you would have the time, (or anyone else who might read this) a friend and I have a youtube page where we go through all of the scriptures on what ”Tongues” truly is according to the Bible, http://www.youtube.com/1nemind

  10. Loris,

    Acts 2 is actually the only example that clearly points to earthly languages. 1 Cor 12-14 is quite clearly not referring to earthly language (see, e.g., 1 Cor 14:2, and note that what is needed to interpret tongues is not someone who speaks the language but someone who has the gift of interpretation). Check out the commentary on 1 Corinthians by of a top NT scholar like Gordon Fee.

    As for Rom 8:26, it speaks of “groans that words cannot express” — meaning, sighing and groaning, etc., beyond what words can say, but it is certainly not silent.

    Feel free to call in the show, especially on a Friday, if you’d like to discuss these questions in more depth. Perhaps others will have time to post in more depth and help answer your questions.

    Thanks for posting here.

  11. Loris,

    What of when Paul talks saying “Whether I speak in tongues of angels or of men……” doesn’t that imply that it could be possible for someone to speak a tongue not of earth? That said i think ur analysis is mostly on point……..

  13. Dr. Brown,

    What do you think of Wayne Grudem’s thoughts on the subject of the gifts of the Spirit in his book systematic theology? Seems the charismatic movement is on both sides of the arminian and calvinist camps 🙂

  14. I am glad we agree that in Acts 2 it was earthly languages (or maybe you don’t?). But where in Scripture does it make a transition to some ”heavenly language”? The transition couldn’t be in Acts 10 because as we see in Acts 11, they were speaking in languages no different from what was spoken in Acts 2. How do I know that in Acts 10 it was the same kind of ”tongues” as in Acts 2? In Acts 11:1-18, Peter explains exactly what happened throughout Acts 10. And in Acts 11:15 he says ”And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.”

    The key word in this verse is beginning. Peter told the other disciples in Jerusalem that when he went to Cornelius’ home, that after preaching the Gospel, the Holy Spirit fell on him and his household just as it happened to the disciples at the beginning….., now what is this beginning he is speaking of, well that would very clearly be the day of Pentecost which would be in acts 2. Now if the way the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius’ family was the same as the way as it was in Acts 2, then all we have to do is go to Acts 2 and see what happened there……..it couldn’t be any clearer that in Acts 2 the men who received the Holy Spirit and began glorifying God were speaking in earthly languages! That leaves Acts 19 which is the only other place in Acts where the gift of tongues is mentioned. And in Acts 19 it is the same Greek word we see used in acts 2, and acts 10, it is the greek word glossa (in Acts 2 there was also the Greek word Deealektos which means dialect) which means language or dialect used by a particular people. Also, just as in Acts 2 and 10, after they received the Holy Spirit they began speaking in foreign languages and in those languages they magnified God and what He has done through Christ. There is no reason at all to believe that the gift given here is any different from that of acts 2 and acts 10. Also, notice how in Acts 18 some of the Corinthians are said to have believed and bin batpized yet it is all mentioned in passing and there is no mentiond of some different kind on tongues, there is no mention of some ”heavenly language”. And IF they were speaking some heavenly language (throughout the book of Acts) wouldn’t Luke have written about it in the book of Acts? And explained how they all understood a language that no one has ever heard before and that it was from heaven! Let’s not go beyond the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 4:6), or add to them something that isn’t there.

    Mwiya, in regards to your question on what I think about “Whether I speak in tongues of angels or of men……”

    The first word used used in 1 Corinthians 13 is, “though”.

    In our English translation, when we check what it is in the Greek we see the Greek word eh-on which means “if” or “in case”, meaning Paul is speaking hypothetically.

    You can check a lexicon for yourself too of course. So as I said before, Paul is exaggerating like he is doing in the rest of the chapter when he says things like remove mountains, he was making a point that without love it would all mean nothing!
    So again,” if” or you could also say, “in case”, these 2 words would be a better translation than “though”, and it’s actually translated this way in the NIV for example, and it’s a better translation because it shows the context Paul was speaking in, he was speaking hypothetically, not saying that he had these abilities, he was saying IF he had these abilities.
    If I speak with the tongues of angels but have not love it means nothing! He is not saying he speaks some heavenly angelic language, not at all. Furthermore, the Bible is full of foreshadows, but yet, we don’t find this ecstatic speech or heavenly language ANYWHERE in the Bible! If someone still wants to think that there is some heavenly language, what about when Isaiah saw God’s throne in Isaiah 6 for example, and he was hearing holy holy holy? Do the angels get to pick and choose when they speak this heavenly language? In Isaiah 6, it has the Hebrew word Ka-doshe, which means holy, and he heard Ka-doshe while he heard the angels speaking. Or how about every time an angel spoke with a human? Did the angels not speak in languages understandable to the people? Earthly human languages? Also, when Paul says tongues of angels, he may be referring to the perfection in their speech, that they would know every language and every word and that they would be able to speak it fluently with a perfection no human ever could!

    Also, when Paul says that if he has not love he has become like a clanging symbol, he is basically saying that if he has not love he is like a pagan, now if he was actually talking about the ability to speak a heavenly language would he elude to the possibility of a pagan having the Holy Spirit? Of course not! But the main point that you shouldn’t forget is that he says IF he could speak with these tongues. Again, he was exaggerating to prove a point that without love all these things are useless. There could be a better explaination too of course 🙂

    I apologize for the long message and it is not necessarily directed towards Dr. Brown

  15. Oh, and about Romans 8:26, the Greek is VERY clear that it is a sigh or a groan which is unspeakable/unutterable. A clear reading of the text will tell you that it is speaking about the Spirit interceding with NO noise. Quite possibly in the same way the Spirit would intercede when one of the Prophets would recieve a revelation.

    And about 1 Corinthians 14:2

    1 Corinthians 14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

    The word for uninformed here in the Greek is id-ee-o’-tace (iddy-o-tace). Which can also be translated as unlearned or illiterate, so again, further proof that they were earthly languages that could be learned and were learned at some stage in the lives of those who did not have the gift of tongues. In 1 Cor 14:23 Paul makes it pretty clear that some unbelievers would be able to understand the ”tongues” as long as they weren’t unlearned (id-ee-o-tace) in regards to the language being spoken.

    So again, these were languages that could be learned from unbelievers

  16. Loris,

    Sorry to be so blunt, but you’re quite wrong about the Greek in Romans 8:26. Whatever made you think that stegnamos, which simply means a groan, is inaudible? For example, in Exod 2:24 in teh LXX, it says that God heard the stegnamos of His people. He heard them groaning and sighing! It is used in that sense quite commonly in the LXX, referring to audible groaning. As for alaletos, as Friberg explains, it means, “of something that arouses such strong emotions one cannot find words to speak of it” — a perfect description of the deep groaning that often comes from intercession, and something that I have often experienced. (I don’t believe Paul is speaking of tongues here, but your interpretation of the Greek is certainly wrong.)

    Also, Loris, with all due respect to your passion and conviction, you really need to go through some of the solid commentaries on 1 Corinthians, starting with Gordon Fee. You will see that you are quite wrong in your approach to the text here — quite wrong. In fact, you’re basically saying the opposite of what Paul was saying.

    Now, I’m normally not so blunt with folks posting here, but since you have been quite strident in your statements — and quite mistaken — I owe it to you to speak plainly.

    If you are a seeker of truth, you are in for some wonderful biblical discoveries based on sound exegesis of the text. I wish you well on your journey!

  17. Dr. Brown,

    I was in no way stating that stegnamos was inaudible, what I was saying is that alaletos is inaudible in the context that it is being used. I have to respectfully disagree with what you quoted from Friberg and agree with the derivative word for alaletos which is laleo and it means to utter a voice or EMIT A SOUND. So, I think the way I interpreted Romans 8:26 falls well in line with the Greek. ”Groanings which cannot be uttered” means what it says, stegnamos which alaletos……or, better yet, stegnamos which do NOT emit a sound.

    If you dont mind, could you give me an example of how I was ”quite wrong” in my approach and how I was ”basically saying the opposite of what Paul was saying.”?

    Anyways, no hard feelings, God bless you brother.

  18. I also just want to add to what I said about 1 Corinthians 13

    If Paul were making a definitive statement, pertaining to something he actually did or practice, that would apply to the other four examples that immediately followed his statement on the tongues of angels.

    1. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels

    2. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge

    3. if I have a faith that can move mountains

    4. If I give all I possess to the poor

    5. (If is implied, but not written) surrender my body to the flames

    If, “IF” number 1. was a definitive statement, then 2. thru 5. would also have to be definitive statements. BUT THEY ARE NOT! They are all hypothetical exaggerated scenarios USED to make an extremely strong point about love. Anyone who does not see this, sadly does not want to see it.

  19. Loris,

    If you’ll look at this forum here, you’ll see that I generally don’t have a chance to interact in depth with most posts because of time constraints. If I’m able to respond more fully, I’ll do that.

    In short, your analysis of alaletos is not confirmed in the lexicons.

    As for 1 Cor 14, please do review the commentaries here, beginning with Fee, OK? Again, if I have time to interact more fully, I’ll do my best to. (BTW, I might take this up on the radio one day this week, and our staff will let you know if that happens.)

    And yes, of course, no hard feelings!

  20. Loris,

    Let me just take one minute to clarify what 1 Cor 14 states. First, here’s the rendering of the NET: 1 Cor 14:22-25: 22 So then, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and unbelievers or uninformed people enter, will they not say that you have lost your minds? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or uninformed person enters, he will be convicted by all, he will be called to account by all. 25 The secrets of his heart are disclosed, and in this way he will fall down with his face to the ground and worship God, declaring, “God is really among you.”

    As virtually all major lexicons recognize, idiotes refers to those who are not initiated into the things of the Spirit, those who are “uninformed,” and so glossalalia has no meaning for them — NOT because they haven’t learned the languages being spoken. Certainly not!

    That’s why Paul encourages the gift of prophecy for outsiders and those uninformed. This way, they will be spoken to prophetically in an intelligible language and will repent and acknowledge that God is in the midst of His people.

    The Message paraphrase gets the point across well: If you come together as a congregation and some unbelieving outsiders walk in on you as you’re all praying in tongues, unintelligible to each other and to them, won’t they assume you’ve taken leave of your senses and get out of there as fast as they can? But if some unbelieving outsiders walk in on a service where people are speaking out God’s truth, the plain words will bring them up against the truth and probe their hearts. Before you know it, they’re going to be on their faces before God, recognizing that God is among you.

    So, your statements are the opposite of what Paul meant and said.

    Again, out of respect of your apparent love for the Lord, I’ve taken time to interact briefly but won’t be able to go back and forth with you on the point. Suffice it to say that your interpretation is not supported by the Greek, not supported by the context, not supported by the best lexicons, and not supported by the best commentators. May Prov 1:5 apply to you!

  21. Dr. Brown,

    I understand that you are busy and that you cant interect too much on the board like this so I’ll try to keep it as short as possible.

    Before I get into the 1 Cor 14 part of your message, I just want to say that the way I interpreted Romans 8:26 definitely falls in line with what we have in lexicons as I showed from the derivative word, which means ”emit a sound”! and seeing how I got that from a lexicon, I think its fair to say my analysis IS confirmed in the lexicons.

    I can get into why I disagree with the way you interpreted 1 Cor 14:22-25 but for arguments sake, I will give you what you said and show you why it (with all due respect) makes no sense in the context of 1 Cor 12-14. How could something be a sign (1 Cor 14:22) to someone who does NOT understand the things of the Spirit (as you put it)? It is a sign to unbelievers (1 Cor 14:22) because it is an earthly human language which is to be a sign in the same context that it was a sign in Acts 2, by preaching the Gospel in languages understandable to the unbeliever (this is the context I was using ideeotace in)

    So again, tongues are a sign not to believers but to unbelievers, also, they are for the profit (edification) of all (1 Cor 12:7) just as all other gifts. Tongues are not given so that you can have some secret prayer language with God, they are given to be used as they were in Acts 2. 1 Cor 12-14 is NOT a guideline on how to use tongues, it is a REBUKE! And also, your paraphrase you gave is not only unbiblical, but disobedient to God’s command (given through Paul) for ORDER in the Church. 1cor 14:27, these are commands of the Lord and whoever doesn’t abide by them is disobeying God’s very clear commands! Again, 1 cor 14 is a rebuke, not a guideline. 1 Cor 14:22-25 needs to be read in light of 1 Cor 14:27, 37 and 40. It is to be one at a time! It has to be interpreted! And in the congregations it should be 2 or 3 at the most! Again, with all due respect, your interpretation of verses 22-25 is wrong. You are actually going against what Paul says and it is actually you who is saying ”the opposite of what Paul meant and said.” as he wasn’t condoning what they were doing but rebuking it. And this becomes even more evident in light of the Scriptures I presented 1 Cor 14:27, 37 and 40. You are clearly interpreting verses 22-25 in a modern day Pentecostal fashion (If you agree with the way ”the Message” interprets it) while I am interpreting those same verse in the same spirit as Paul was writing it (1 Cor 14:27, 37 and 40).

    Plus, as it says in 1 Corinthians 13, verses 8, 9 and 10, that when the perfect comes, meaning the kingdom of God, that tongues will cease, well hold on a second, if it is a heavenly language why in the world would it cease?
    If they are heavenly languages to be used in praying, worshiping and praising God wouldn’t they be everlasting? Tongues would cease because it was a gift for the earth to spread the gospel! Which is why it came with the church and not at the time of Moses or Isaiah.
    It came at the time of the church because with the church came salvation to the gentiles who would have no way of understanding the gospel unless the ones preaching to them spoke their language.
    Also, just as with tongues, prophesying and healing could be used to preach the gospel but there would be no need for healing in heaven, just as there would be no need for people to have the gift of speaking unlearned languages to preach the Gospel, because everybody there would have obviously already been SAVED and of course, healed of any ailments.
    If it is a heavenly language that is used on earth, surely it would be most appropriate to be used in heaven where it came from, but it will cease? That would make no sense.
    Lets just throw out everything though, and look at how Christ told us to pray (Matthew 6), and pray that way, because as I said in my first message, He never spoke of some heavenly prayer language and furthermore, He said ”And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.”. If ”ra ba ka sha shun da rey taka rey ta…” (Dont take any offence by this, I’m just making a point) is not vain repitition I dont know what is.
    I apologize if this mesage is too long, I tried to keep it as short as possible. Just because I am young (24) and I haven’t been a Christian for the longest time (2 years and 5 months), and I obviously dont know the Scriptures as well as you, (except for maybe on this topic 🙂 ) it doesnt mean I am neccesarily wrong 🙂 , and just as you applied a Scripture to me, so will I also apply a Scripture to myself 1 Timothy 4:12, please let it apply to me Lord!

    I want to say that this may very well be my last message on this topic because, this doesn’t seem like it will go anywhere (in regards to us coming to an agreement), and we will just waste eachothers time continuously going back and forth

    Take care and God bless. And if I offended you or appeared to be disrespectful in any way it was definitely NOT my intention. I have a great deal of respect for you Dr. Brown, you are actually my favorite evangelist/debater/author 🙂

  22. Loris,

    Thanks for your post, and thanks for your very kind, gracious words at the end. We are both recipients of God’s amazing grace! And yes, may 1 Tim 4:12 apply to you.

    Please do follow up on the resources I mentioned, as I believe you will find them truly enlightening, eye-opening and, I expect, perspective changing. And hopefully you’ll be able to listen to some of my radio debates on cessationism later this month (I believe the third week of February) on the LOF.

    May the Lord’s smile be yours.

  23. hey Loris,

    You made a great point about the languages we hear angels speak in the bible. But here is a further question 🙂

    In Isaiah, the prophet sees and hears the seraphim praise God in Hebrew. In Revelation John hears the 4 creatures with six wings do the same thing (praise God). Now, what language was it that John heard them speak these praises in?

  25. Dr. Brown,

    Thank you for the kind words.

    About cessationism, I dont (although it may appear that I do) believe the gifts have ceased yet, as I stated in my last message, I believe they will cease when the ”perfect comes” which would be the Kingdom of God.

    If a missionary all the way in a country where they dont have the Bible is trying to witness to someone, I believe that God can and (and although we rarely hear about it) does give them the ability to speak in a language (hence, how it is a sign to unbelievers 1 Cor 14:22), so that the non-believer can hear the Gospel and be saved.

  26. Mwiya,

    In revelation I believe John could have been hearing either Hebrew, Aramaic or possible even Greek. Or, it could have been something else entirely and he had the gift of interpretation.

    Could it have been a heavenly language? Of course that would be possible (although it is not clear in Scripture). But that wouldn’t mean the gift of tongues for the earth was a heavenly language, especially in light of Scriptures such as 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 where we see very clearly that ”tongues” would cease……..I dont know if you read it but I get into why this would be a problem (tongues ceasing) more on the message right above Dr. Browns last message.

    Take care and God bless.

  27. Loris,

    I have heard about and been a close witness to examples of believers supernaturally speaking in foreign languages for God-ordained purposes, but, as I have stated, the primary teaching of the NT on “tongues” is that it refers to an unknown language — be it heavenly or simply a new language that God gives to His people. Again, I do hope that you will study these issues out more fully.

  28. Dr. Brown,

    As I am sure you know, nowhere in Scripture do we see the word ”unknown” beside language or tongue! We do see that in the KJV, but that was added by the translators and is NOT in the original Greek. So, with all due respect, your claim that these were ”unknown” or some secret languages is NOT supported anywhere in Scripture.

    Were the languages being spoken sometimes unknown to the speaker and/or listener? Yes, but that doesn’t mean they were not understood from people who spoke those languages, whether it be a Farsi dialect or Japanese, for example. They were, according to Scripture, very clearly earthly languages and like I have said before, if they were not, Luke and/or Paul would have stated so.

    And with all due respect, I am simply not interested in reading another mans commentary as I have already studied the topic in depth, and I dont need to hear (what I believe) will be faulty, bias commentary. Plus, the final authority needs to be Scripture ALWAYS, and, the Holy Spirit. Like you have said in many of your lectures/debates with Jews that they should seek the Scriptures out on their own with careful study and prayer, I think that should be applied to not only finding out that Jesus is the Messiah but to all things, including ”tongues”.

    I have 2 brothers in Christ who used to ”speak in tongues” for hours but after studying the Scriptures came to the truth of what they clearly (at least IMO) teach, that the ”tongues” of the Bible are indeed languages.

    God bless you brother.

  29. Loris,

    Before the earth was made, what language do you think was spoken in heaven? Was Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic spoken before earth was created?

  30. Ben,

    We have no way of knowing for sure, all we can really do is speculate…….but as I said before, there very well COULD be a heavenly language. Of course that would be possible (although it is not clear in Scripture). But that wouldn’t mean the gift of tongues for the earth was a heavenly language, especially in light of Scriptures such as 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 where we see very clearly that ”tongues” would cease

    (Pasted from what I posted above) as it says in 1 Corinthians 13, verses 8, 9 and 10, that when the perfect comes, meaning the kingdom of God, that tongues will cease, well hold on a second, if it is a heavenly language why in the world would it cease?

    If they are heavenly languages to be used in praying, worshiping and praising God wouldn’t they be everlasting? Tongues would cease because it was a gift for the earth to spread the gospel! Which is why it came with the church and not at the time of Moses or Isaiah.

    It came at the time of the church because with the church came salvation to the gentiles who would have no way of understanding the gospel unless the ones preaching to them spoke their language.

    Also, just as with tongues, prophesying and healing could be used to preach the gospel but there would be no need for healing in heaven, just as there would be no need for people to have the gift of speaking unlearned languages to preach the Gospel, because everybody there would have obviously already been SAVED and of course, healed of any ailments.

    If it is a heavenly language that is used on earth, surely it would be most appropriate to be used in heaven where it came from, but it will cease? That would make no sense.

    God bless you.

  31. Just to add on to what I posted, in heaven they would obviously be spiritual beings so whos to say they would even need to make utterances to communicate? Who’s to say they wouldn’t communicate in the same way we would with God in silent prayer? (By silent prayer, in case you dont know what I mean, I mean praying in your mind without any movements or noises from your mouth)

  33. Ben,

    I will paste what I posted previously above once again.

    The first word used used in 1 Corinthians 13 is, “though”.

    In our English translation, when we check what it is in the Greek we see the Greek word eh-on which means “if” or “in case”, meaning Paul is speaking hypothetically.

    You can check a lexicon for yourself too of course. So as I said before, Paul is exaggerating like he is doing in the rest of the chapter when he says things like remove mountains, he was making a point that without love it would all mean nothing!
    So again,” if” or you could also say, “in case”, these 2 words would be a better translation than “though”, and it’s actually translated this way in the NIV for example, and it’s a better translation because it shows the context Paul was speaking in, he was speaking hypothetically, not saying that he had these abilities, he was saying IF he had these abilities.
    If I speak with the tongues of angels but have not love it means nothing! He is not saying he speaks some heavenly angelic language, not at all. Furthermore, the Bible is full of foreshadows, but yet, we don’t find this ecstatic speech or heavenly language ANYWHERE in the Bible! If someone still wants to think that there is some heavenly language, what about when Isaiah saw God’s throne in Isaiah 6 for example, and he was hearing holy holy holy? Do the angels get to pick and choose when they speak this heavenly language? In Isaiah 6, it has the Hebrew word Ka-doshe, which means holy, and he heard Ka-doshe while he heard the angels speaking. Or how about every time an angel spoke with a human? Did the angels not speak in languages understandable to the people? Earthly human languages? Also, when Paul says tongues of angels, he may be referring to the perfection in their speech, that they would know every language and every word and that they would be able to speak it fluently with a perfection no human ever could!

    Also, when Paul says that if he has not love he has become like a clanging symbol, he is basically saying that if he has not love he is like a pagan, now if he was actually talking about the ability to speak a heavenly language would he elude to the possibility of a pagan having the Holy Spirit? Of course not! But the main point that you shouldn’t forget is that he says IF he could speak with these tongues. Again, he was exaggerating to prove a point that without love all these things are useless. There could be a better explanation too of course .

    I also just want to add to what I said about 1 Corinthians 13

    If Paul were making a definitive statement, pertaining to something he actually did or practice, that would apply to the other four examples that immediately followed his statement on the tongues of angels.

    1. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels

    2. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge

    3. if I have a faith that can move mountains

    4. If I give all I possess to the poor

    5. (If is implied, but not written) surrender my body to the flames

    If, “IF” number 1. was a definitive statement, then 2. thru 5. would also have to be definitive statements. BUT THEY ARE NOT! They are all hypothetical exaggerated scenarios USED to make an extremely strong point about love. Anyone who does not see this, sadly does not want to see it.

  36. Again: “Why do you think Paul separates tongues of men and angels?”

    My question was not about if Paul possessed the ability of a heavenly tongue but why did he separate it?

  37. “Also, when Paul says tongues of angels, he may be referring to the perfection in their speech, that they would know every language and every word and that they would be able to speak it fluently with a perfection no human ever could!”

    How did you come to this conclusion?

  38. Ben KC says:

    Again: “Why do you think Paul separates tongues of men and angels?”

    My question was not about if Paul possessed the ability of a heavenly tongue but why did he separate it?

    Sorry I missed the key word ”seperates”.

    I believe it coincides with the rest of his ”ifs”. Something that he can do, followed by something that he cant do.

    If I speak in the tongues of men (can) and of angels (cant)

    If I have the gift of prophecy (can) and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge (cant)

  39. Ben KC says:

    Do you think its not the language itself will cease but the gift of tongues?

    I think it is saying that the ability to speak unlearned languages will cease, and, possibly human languages themselves.

    If the Pentecostal way of ”speaking in tongues” is what its talking about then it would fall under the category of an unlearned language therefore it will cease.

  40. Ben KC says:

    “Also, when Paul says tongues of angels, he may be referring to the perfection in their speech, that they would know every language and every word and that they would be able to speak it fluently with a perfection no human ever could!”

    How did you come to this conclusion?

    It was one of the possibilies that I listed. I am NOT saying this is definitely what Paul is talking about.

    Bless you brother.

  41. Ben KC,

    I have a question for you. Where does this whole ”praying in tongues” fall in line with how Christ told us to pray in Matthew 6? He never spoke of some heavenly prayer language and furthermore, He said ”And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.”. If ”ra ba ka sha shun da rey taka rey ta…” is not vain repitition, please tell me what is?

  43. Again: “Why do you think Paul separates tongues of men and angels?”

    I guess Im not being clear. What Im trying to say is, Paul is separating an earthly language vs non-earthly language. He is not saying in todays term, Chinese and Korean, meaning languages from distant region on earth. Im talking about a language that is not spoken on earth used like we speak/chat/write in English. Its a unfamiliar language spoken when praying.

  45. Ben,

    Not to be rude or come off as annoyed, but regardless of how you want to word your questions I believe I have already answered it a few times above……….As it written out very clearly, Paul is speaking hypothetically.

    But lets say for arguments sake that you are right, that still doesnt address the fact that the ability to speak in this unlearned heavenly language will cease.

    This is just one of MANY, MANY problems with ”tongues” and the way it is done by some denominations

    And please, before you address this, address my question about Matthew 6.

    Bless you brother.

  46. Paul is not saying the language is going to cease. Prophecy, tongues and knowledge are all supernatural gift/tools that will cease.

  47. Matt 6.

    The root issue Jesus is dealing with is “For they think that they will be heard for their many words.” Its not about being repetitious or else the angels who say “holy holy holy” would be guilty.

  49. Ben,

    I guess I didn’t word it very well. My point was, if the gift of tongues will cease, then so will the ability to speak in an unlearned language, meaning ”the heavenly tongue” would not be needed anymore, nor used.

    Can you please address my question on Matthew 6 in its entirety? Thanks.

  50. Ben,

    As I explained earlier, Jesus teaches us how to pray, He never mentions some heavenly language, He gives us a guidline on how to pray and as I stated before, He condemns vain repetition. If you check a lexicon some of the definitions given are: to repeat the same things over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, prate. So again, please address how ”shundu ro ra ba kasha shundu ro raba kasha key ta ka ta ka ba ba ba ba……” is coinciding with the way Christ commanded us to pray.

    God bless you brother.

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